[RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries
Ray Walters
ray at solarray.com
Thu Feb 8 11:32:16 PST 2024
The auxiliary charger was only used after Simpliphi recommended it.
This was also a requirement before they would even issue an RMA: charge
each battery individually for 2 hours with a separate DC power supply or
battery charger. That's 8 hours total on site by the way, and another
problem I had with their overall warranty process. Every step of the
way was one delay effort after another. Even this week, they broke the
news to me that I wasn't getting a warranty for my customer, because of
"high voltage". I mentioned that I thought it was due to a voltage
differential between the the batteries at very low SOC and voltage, and
not that the charger had inadvertently exceeded high voltage limits.
Another 3 days of no communication has ensued, as they check with
engineering.
Basically, its like Boeing's 737 Max; if there's a problem with even 1
out of 200 systems, its not acceptable.
Simpliphi is obligated to:
A) Put it in writing that the warranty is voided if we use XW inverters
or older FM 80 charge controllers. (2 units mentioned specifically that
they had seen this happen with before)
or B) Fix their BMS, so it is robust enough to survive in systems that
otherwise work fine with other batteries.
or C) Honor the warranty and take the hit 1 out of 200 times that it
doesn't work out.
Simpliphi knew there was a problem, and hid it from installers, because
they didn't want to lose sales. Then when there is a failure after the
sale, they blow us off with repeated delays, and their vaporware 10 year
warranty. The fact that Briggs &Stratton is part of this now, just
points to the usual penny pinching in a corporation after consolidation.
I hope I'm wrong, I will report to the Wrenches list as to what
transpires. Right now, I'm shopping for SLA batteries to get this
customer back in action.
Reporting as always from the Bleeding Edge,
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
On 2/8/2024 7:35 AM, Richard Nicol via RE-wrenches wrote:
> Hi Ray
> We had a complete failure of 6 Simpliphi batteries with the same
> symptoms you found.
> Another installer had replaced the inverter with an XW and appeared to
> leave the charger programing on factory defaults along with temp
> compensation so when the generator was called for it would rise to
> absorption at 57.6V. I considered that programming may have reverted
> to defaults too as the other installer in this case was experienced
> and respected. We have seen Magnum inverters with an ARC revert to
> default programming and we've seen Magnum 48v programming
> suddenly revert to precisely 1/4 of its settings - so it shifted to
> 12v values on its own?? Sometimes I find it's hard to trust the
> complexity of firmware and software (especially after having dealt
> with garbage like the outback skybox!)
>
> I too expected the bms to protect itself and shut down if the voltage
> was high enough to do damage. It seems ridiculous that it doesn't.
>
> You mentioned the aux charger is stable at 58v - if this charger was
> used in the past in additon to the XW it may be the culprit as 56v is
> typically the max for simpliphi - the integration guides started at
> 56v, then Simpliphi changed the recommendation to a lower voltage and
> longer duration, only to later revise charging recommendations back to
> 56v for a short duration.
>
> Lithium manufacturers drive very precise charging recommendations, but
> then we find that the equipment we use in off grid
> (outback/magnum/schneider/midnite) doesn't control as tightly or
> precisely as the battery manufacturer requires.
>
> Among the challenges we found was absolutely no infrastructure for
> disposal of the failed batteries..
>
> Hope you find reasonable resolution -
> Thanks
> Rich
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches
> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Ray
>
> I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium.
> Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between
> OEMS.
>
> But that sure sucks.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
>> On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches
>> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh
>> batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+
>> for off grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to
>> bottom of the barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty
>> process has not been smooth. It took almost a week to even get
>> shipping info from Simpliphi, and then another week to deal with
>> Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept used Li+ batteries for
>> shipment. To their credit, tech support has been knowledgeable,
>> responsive, and available by phone while on site.
>>
>> Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month
>> ago, after several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down
>> due to low voltage. (so far, fairly typical off grid winter
>> situation) When the customer started the generator and tried to
>> revive the system, he noticed one of the batteries didn't seem to
>> be taking a charge, so after consulting with Simpliphi, he
>> charged each battery separately with a small aux charger. I
>> checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v.
>> By the time I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even
>> milliamps of charge current. The BMSs had all disconnected the
>> batteries from the buss, but strangely there was residual voltage
>> (51vdc) on the terminals. It was not usable however, and crashed
>> to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no loads.
>>
>> Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high
>> voltage event. Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had
>> both the Outback FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according
>> to the Simpliphi integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high
>> voltage recording, they just don't like the look of how their
>> electronics fried. Electronics failed = customer's fault. I
>> think it failed because of the voltage differential between the
>> low battery voltage and normal charge voltage. If the BMS can't
>> survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper
>> programming on industry standard equipment, its not suitable for
>> off grid applications. Plenty of manus have decided to quit
>> recommending their equipment for off grid; its a tough gig.
>>
>> How many times have we all heard the old '/Manu S blaming Manu
>> X'/ snafu on this list? Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have
>> transient over voltage events. Well, that should be mentioned in
>> the integration guide, so we can make an informed decision, and
>> not use that inverter with their batteries.
>>
>> So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries
>> would have cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete
>> new set. That's approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*.
>> Simpliphi is saying they'll give us a discount on refurbished
>> units; that is still to be seen. The customer has been running
>> on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in sub zero weather at
>> 9000 ft. Also, why would we want to reinstall more of these,
>> without any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of
>> years?
>>
>> In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with
>> such a complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough
>> RMA process, or with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top
>> tier manu. I thought I was providing my customer with the best,
>> but now good old flooded lead acid batteries are all I'm
>> considering for up coming installs. It's 2024, but lead acid are
>> a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite robust
>> and predictable. Even when they fail, there are plenty of
>> warning signs beforehand. They also can handle below freezing
>> weather, and I am just not a fan of the whole '/battery heating
>> do it yourself off Ebay with pet heaters'/ BS either.
>>
>> *Li+ is just not ready for off grid.* It seems to work fine for
>> folks that don't rely on it, like GTB.
>>
>> At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too
>> far off of lead acid. Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at
>> almost $800/ kWh? We were counting on you, we sold these
>> batteries to many clients under the guise that this was NOT a
>> /'Fly by night/ made in China/' offering. Based on cycle life,
>> this should have lasted a lifetime. I hate being wrong. I can
>> only pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't start
>> failing on my watch.
>>
>> I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give
>> Simpliphi a chance to make this right. However, this week I heard
>> their "diagnosis", and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it
>> was time. <rant off>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>>
>> On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>> One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS
>>> failure/warranty/fix/replacement.
>>>
>>> Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM.
>>>
>>> I guess its something else we need to check on.
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches
>>>> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg
>>>> by an Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward
>>>> customers. But of course East Penn is good to work with. My
>>>> understanding is that they do work with the three phase Sol-Ark
>>>> inverters.
>>>>
>>>> Brad
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches
>>>> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Pals:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve
>>>> regulated lead-acid batteries.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> William
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Miller Solar
>>>>
>>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>>>
>>>> 805-438-5600
>>>>
>>>> www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
>>>>
>>>> CA Lic. 773985
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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