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<p>The auxiliary charger was only used after Simpliphi recommended
it. This was also a requirement before they would even issue an
RMA: charge each battery individually for 2 hours with a separate
DC power supply or battery charger. That's 8 hours total on site
by the way, and another problem I had with their overall warranty
process. Every step of the way was one delay effort after
another. Even this week, they broke the news to me that I wasn't
getting a warranty for my customer, because of "high voltage". I
mentioned that I thought it was due to a voltage differential
between the the batteries at very low SOC and voltage, and not
that the charger had inadvertently exceeded high voltage limits.
Another 3 days of no communication has ensued, as they check with
engineering. <br>
</p>
<p>Basically, its like Boeing's 737 Max; if there's a problem with
even 1 out of 200 systems, its not acceptable. </p>
<p>Simpliphi is obligated to:<br>
A) Put it in writing that the warranty is voided if we use XW
inverters or older FM 80 charge controllers. (2 units mentioned
specifically that they had seen this happen with before) <br>
or B) Fix their BMS, so it is robust enough to survive in
systems that otherwise work fine with other batteries.<br>
or C) Honor the warranty and take the hit 1 out of 200 times that
it doesn't work out.</p>
<p>Simpliphi knew there was a problem, and hid it from installers,
because they didn't want to lose sales. Then when there is a
failure after the sale, they blow us off with repeated delays, and
their vaporware 10 year warranty. The fact that Briggs
&Stratton is part of this now, just points to the usual penny
pinching in a corporation after consolidation.</p>
<p>I hope I'm wrong, I will report to the Wrenches list as to what
transpires. Right now, I'm shopping for SLA batteries to get this
customer back in action.<br>
</p>
<p>Reporting as always from the Bleeding Edge,</p>
<p>Ray Walters<br>
Remote Solar<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/8/2024 7:35 AM, Richard Nicol via
RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CALm174MJB=qbZDV9dT4567Zd375ceFh40+TuBqD3gj3DDewJpQ@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Ray
<div>We had a complete failure of 6 Simpliphi batteries with the
same symptoms you found.</div>
<div>Another installer had replaced the inverter with an XW and
appeared to leave the charger programing on factory defaults
along with temp compensation so when the generator was called
for it would rise to absorption at 57.6V. I considered that
programming may have reverted to defaults too as the other
installer in this case was experienced and respected. We have
seen Magnum inverters with an ARC revert to default
programming and we've seen Magnum 48v programming
suddenly revert to precisely 1/4 of its settings - so it
shifted to 12v values on its own?? Sometimes I find it's hard
to trust the complexity of firmware and software (especially
after having dealt with garbage like the outback skybox!)<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>I too expected the bms to protect itself and shut down if
the voltage was high enough to do damage. It seems ridiculous
that it doesn't.</div>
<div><br>
<div>You mentioned the aux charger is stable at 58v - if this
charger was used in the past in additon to the XW it may be
the culprit as 56v is typically the max for simpliphi - the
integration guides started at 56v, then Simpliphi changed
the recommendation to a lower voltage and longer duration,
only to later revise charging recommendations back to 56v
for a short duration.</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Lithium manufacturers drive very precise charging
recommendations, but then we find that the equipment we use in
off grid (outback/magnum/schneider/midnite) doesn't control as
tightly or precisely as the battery manufacturer requires.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Among the challenges we found was absolutely no
infrastructure for disposal of the failed batteries..<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hope you find reasonable resolution - </div>
<div>Thanks<br>
Rich</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM
Jay via RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Ray</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">I’m going more and more with same oem for
systems with lithium. </div>
<div dir="ltr">Specifically so I don’t have an issue with
finger pointing between OEMS. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">But that sure sucks. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Jay</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray
Walters via RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p>We just had a complete failure of a set of four
Simpliphi 3.8 KWh batteries, 48 v. It has completely
changed my thoughts on Li+ for off grid. This set
lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the
barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty process
has not been smooth. It took almost a week to even
get shipping info from Simpliphi, and then another
week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to
accept used Li+ batteries for shipment. To their
credit, tech support has been knowledgeable,
responsive, and available by phone while on site. <br>
</p>
<p> Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but
then a month ago, after several days of cloudy
weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. (so
far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When
the customer started the generator and tried to revive
the system, he noticed one of the batteries didn't
seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with
Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a
small aux charger. I checked this charger and it was
quite stable at a max of 58 v. By the time I arrived,
all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of
charge current. The BMSs had all disconnected the
batteries from the buss, but strangely there was
residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals. It was not
usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to
the inverter with no loads. <br>
</p>
<p>Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried
due to a high voltage event. Its winter, there was no
lightning, and we had both the Outback FM100 and the
Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi
integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high
voltage recording, they just don't like the look of
how their electronics fried. Electronics failed =
customer's fault. I think it failed because of the
voltage differential between the low battery voltage
and normal charge voltage. If the BMS can't survive
in a typical off grid environment, with proper
programming on industry standard equipment, its not
suitable for off grid applications. Plenty of manus
have decided to quit recommending their equipment for
off grid; its a tough gig.</p>
<p>How many times have we all heard the old '<i>Manu S
blaming Manu X'</i> snafu on this list? Simpliphi
is saying that the XW can have transient over voltage
events. Well, that should be mentioned in the
integration guide, so we can make an informed
decision, and not use that inverter with their
batteries. <br>
</p>
<p>So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart
batteries would have cost, my client is looking at
having to buy a complete new set. That's approx. <b>$1.60/
kWh of use from the old set</b>. Simpliphi is
saying they'll give us a discount on refurbished
units; that is still to be seen. The customer has
been running on an old generator for the past 3 weeks
in sub zero weather at 9000 ft. Also, why would we
want to reinstall more of these, without any assurance
that this won't happen again in a couple of years? </p>
<p>In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never
dealt with such a complete and sudden battery failure,
or with such a rough RMA process, or with such a poor
warranty from a supposedly top tier manu. I thought I
was providing my customer with the best, but now good
old flooded lead acid batteries are all I'm
considering for up coming installs. It's 2024, but
lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper
maintenance are quite robust and predictable. Even
when they fail, there are plenty of warning signs
beforehand. They also can handle below freezing
weather, and I am just not a fan of the whole '<i>battery
heating do it yourself off Ebay with pet heaters'</i>
BS either. <br>
</p>
<p><b>Li+ is just not ready for off grid.</b> It seems
to work fine for folks that don't rely on it, like
GTB. <br>
</p>
<p>At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point
is not too far off of lead acid. Simpliphi (now
Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? We were
counting on you, we sold these batteries to many
clients under the guise that this was NOT a <i>'Fly
by night/ made in China</i>' offering. Based on
cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime. I
hate being wrong. I can only pray that more of these
high price tag batteries don't start failing on my
watch. <br>
</p>
<p>I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying
to give Simpliphi a chance to make this right.
However, this week I heard their "diagnosis", and then
I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it was time. <rant
off><br>
</p>
<p>Sincerely, <br>
</p>
<p>Ray Walters<br>
Remote Solar<br>
</p>
<div>On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> One of the things that I’m just
now learning is about BMS
failure/warranty/fix/replacement.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Some can be field installed some need to go back
to the OEM.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I guess its something else we need to check on. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Jay</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett
via RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Read the warranty. Very limited
uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an Italian
Co that is somewhat condescending toward
customers. But of course East Penn is good
to work with. My understanding is that they
do work with the three phase Sol-Ark
inverters.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Brad</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed,
Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via
RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">Pals:</span></p>
<div><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""> </span><br>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">Anyone
have any experience with this
product, good or bad?</span></p>
<div><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""> </span><br>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""><a
href="https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka</a></span></p>
<div><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""> </span><br>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">We
have had excellent results using
their flooded and valve
regulated lead-acid batteries.</span></p>
<div><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""> </span><br>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">William</span></p>
<div><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""> </span><br>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif"">Miller
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif"">17395
Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif"">805-438-5600</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif""><a
href="http://www.millersolar.com/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.millersolar.com</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif"">CA Lic.
773985</span></p>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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