[RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries
Ray Walters
ray at solarray.com
Thu Feb 8 13:39:12 PST 2024
Hi Richard;
Off list, what was your outcome from Simpliphi? Did they make any deal
with you? What did you put in as replacements?
Thanks,
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
On 2/8/2024 7:35 AM, Richard Nicol via RE-wrenches wrote:
> Hi Ray
> We had a complete failure of 6 Simpliphi batteries with the same
> symptoms you found.
> Another installer had replaced the inverter with an XW and appeared to
> leave the charger programing on factory defaults along with temp
> compensation so when the generator was called for it would rise to
> absorption at 57.6V. I considered that programming may have reverted
> to defaults too as the other installer in this case was experienced
> and respected. We have seen Magnum inverters with an ARC revert to
> default programming and we've seen Magnum 48v programming
> suddenly revert to precisely 1/4 of its settings - so it shifted to
> 12v values on its own?? Sometimes I find it's hard to trust the
> complexity of firmware and software (especially after having dealt
> with garbage like the outback skybox!)
>
> I too expected the bms to protect itself and shut down if the voltage
> was high enough to do damage. It seems ridiculous that it doesn't.
>
> You mentioned the aux charger is stable at 58v - if this charger was
> used in the past in additon to the XW it may be the culprit as 56v is
> typically the max for simpliphi - the integration guides started at
> 56v, then Simpliphi changed the recommendation to a lower voltage and
> longer duration, only to later revise charging recommendations back to
> 56v for a short duration.
>
> Lithium manufacturers drive very precise charging recommendations, but
> then we find that the equipment we use in off grid
> (outback/magnum/schneider/midnite) doesn't control as tightly or
> precisely as the battery manufacturer requires.
>
> Among the challenges we found was absolutely no infrastructure for
> disposal of the failed batteries..
>
> Hope you find reasonable resolution -
> Thanks
> Rich
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches
> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Ray
>
> I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium.
> Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between
> OEMS.
>
> But that sure sucks.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
>> On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches
>> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh
>> batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+
>> for off grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to
>> bottom of the barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty
>> process has not been smooth. It took almost a week to even get
>> shipping info from Simpliphi, and then another week to deal with
>> Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept used Li+ batteries for
>> shipment. To their credit, tech support has been knowledgeable,
>> responsive, and available by phone while on site.
>>
>> Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month
>> ago, after several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down
>> due to low voltage. (so far, fairly typical off grid winter
>> situation) When the customer started the generator and tried to
>> revive the system, he noticed one of the batteries didn't seem to
>> be taking a charge, so after consulting with Simpliphi, he
>> charged each battery separately with a small aux charger. I
>> checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v.
>> By the time I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even
>> milliamps of charge current. The BMSs had all disconnected the
>> batteries from the buss, but strangely there was residual voltage
>> (51vdc) on the terminals. It was not usable however, and crashed
>> to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no loads.
>>
>> Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high
>> voltage event. Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had
>> both the Outback FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according
>> to the Simpliphi integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high
>> voltage recording, they just don't like the look of how their
>> electronics fried. Electronics failed = customer's fault. I
>> think it failed because of the voltage differential between the
>> low battery voltage and normal charge voltage. If the BMS can't
>> survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper
>> programming on industry standard equipment, its not suitable for
>> off grid applications. Plenty of manus have decided to quit
>> recommending their equipment for off grid; its a tough gig.
>>
>> How many times have we all heard the old '/Manu S blaming Manu
>> X'/ snafu on this list? Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have
>> transient over voltage events. Well, that should be mentioned in
>> the integration guide, so we can make an informed decision, and
>> not use that inverter with their batteries.
>>
>> So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries
>> would have cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete
>> new set. That's approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*.
>> Simpliphi is saying they'll give us a discount on refurbished
>> units; that is still to be seen. The customer has been running
>> on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in sub zero weather at
>> 9000 ft. Also, why would we want to reinstall more of these,
>> without any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of
>> years?
>>
>> In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with
>> such a complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough
>> RMA process, or with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top
>> tier manu. I thought I was providing my customer with the best,
>> but now good old flooded lead acid batteries are all I'm
>> considering for up coming installs. It's 2024, but lead acid are
>> a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite robust
>> and predictable. Even when they fail, there are plenty of
>> warning signs beforehand. They also can handle below freezing
>> weather, and I am just not a fan of the whole '/battery heating
>> do it yourself off Ebay with pet heaters'/ BS either.
>>
>> *Li+ is just not ready for off grid.* It seems to work fine for
>> folks that don't rely on it, like GTB.
>>
>> At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too
>> far off of lead acid. Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at
>> almost $800/ kWh? We were counting on you, we sold these
>> batteries to many clients under the guise that this was NOT a
>> /'Fly by night/ made in China/' offering. Based on cycle life,
>> this should have lasted a lifetime. I hate being wrong. I can
>> only pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't start
>> failing on my watch.
>>
>> I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give
>> Simpliphi a chance to make this right. However, this week I heard
>> their "diagnosis", and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it
>> was time. <rant off>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>>
>> On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>> One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS
>>> failure/warranty/fix/replacement.
>>>
>>> Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM.
>>>
>>> I guess its something else we need to check on.
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches
>>>> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg
>>>> by an Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward
>>>> customers. But of course East Penn is good to work with. My
>>>> understanding is that they do work with the three phase Sol-Ark
>>>> inverters.
>>>>
>>>> Brad
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches
>>>> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Pals:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve
>>>> regulated lead-acid batteries.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> William
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Miller Solar
>>>>
>>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>>>
>>>> 805-438-5600
>>>>
>>>> www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
>>>>
>>>> CA Lic. 773985
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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