[RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

Thu Feb 8 06:41:07 PST 2024

Ray,

Oddly enough we're getting ready to replace our 22 year old 48v bank of
Rolls Surrette batteries at our offgrid Design and Training Center in
Western NY with a set of Lithium batteries.The reason for the jump to
Lithium is because of the numerous request by clients for them over the
past 5 year or so. By having them here onsite, this will give us a window
into how they truly operate over time.

Three questions I always ask manufacturers are, can the BMS firmware be
upgraded in the field and/or can the BMS be swapped out in the field? Also
is an internet connection required in order to receive warranty? FYI, Rolls
lithium product is field swappable and does not require an internet
connection. It seems every time we get close to making a choice on which
lithium manufacturer to use something seems to steer us away.

I couldn't agree more with Ray's statement. "but lead acid are a known
quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite robust and predictable.
Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning signs beforehand." Perhaps
what the lithium manufacturers need to do is provide us installers with a
"tool" that gives us a window into the BMS perhaps via a laptop. Maybe it
already exists.

A couple of years back we backed out of a couple of projects due to the
fact the clients insisted on a lithium battery. I declined the projects as
the temperature environment was wrong amongst other reasons too. I followed
up with both projects a year later and both projects failed miserably and
as Ray called it, the inverter manufacturer pointed the finger to the
battery manufacturer and vice versa.

Keep up the great work everyone and don't forget to donate to the wrenches
list.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Guy,
Christopher

On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Ray
>
> I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium.
> Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS.
>
> But that sure sucks.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
> We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh
> batteries, 48 v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off
> grid.  This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the
> barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The RMA/ Warranty process has not been
> smooth.  It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi,
> and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept
> used Li+ batteries for shipment.  To their credit, tech support has been
> knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site.
>
>  Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after
> several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage.
> (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer
> started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the
> batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with
> Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger.  I
> checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v.  By the time
> I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge
> current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but
> strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals.  It was not
> usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no
> loads.
>
> Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage
> event.  Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback
> FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi
> integration guides.   BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they
> just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed
> = customer's fault.  I think it failed because of the voltage differential
> between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage.  If  the BMS
> can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on
> industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications.
> Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off
> grid; its a tough gig.
>
> How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu
> on this list?  Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over
> voltage events.  Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide,
> so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their
> batteries.
>
> So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have
> cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set.  That's
> approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*.  Simpliphi is saying
> they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen.
> The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in
> sub zero weather at 9000 ft.  Also, why would we want to reinstall more of
> these, without any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of
> years?
>
> In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a
> complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, or
> with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu.  I thought I was
> providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead acid
> batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs.  It's 2024, but
> lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite
> robust and predictable.  Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning
> signs beforehand.  They also can handle below freezing weather, and I am
> just not a fan of the whole '*battery heating do it yourself off Ebay
> with pet heaters'* BS either.
>
> *Li+ is just not ready for off grid.*  It seems to work fine for folks
> that don't rely on it, like GTB.
>
> At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off
> of lead acid.   Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? We
> were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under the
> guise that this was NOT a *'Fly by night/ made in China*' offering.
> Based on cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime.  I hate being
> wrong.  I can only pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't
> start failing on my watch.
>
> I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give Simpliphi a
> chance to make this right. However, this week I heard their "diagnosis",
> and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it was time.  <rant off>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS
> failure/warranty/fix/replacement.
>
> Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM.
>
> I guess its something else we need to check on.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an
> Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of course
> East Penn is good to work with. My understanding is that they do work with
> the three phase Sol-Ark inverters.
>
> Brad
>
> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Pals:
>>
>>
>> Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad?
>>
>>
>> https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka
>>
>>
>> We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated
>> lead-acid batteries.
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
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-- 

Chris Schaefer’s

*Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
*5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
<http://www.solarandwindfx.com> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com
<chris at solarandwindfx.com>*

Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."
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