[RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

Thu Feb 8 09:28:25 PST 2024

About 4 years ago I wrote about my failure of Simplify in service 3 years.
after much delay, I took each unit to shop and charged each one on bench
power supply, all returned to full function and are still working today off
grid system.  I agree with the comments they are tricky, MorningStar knows
how to charge them.

On Thu, Feb 8, 2024, 8:42 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Ray,
>
> Oddly enough we're getting ready to replace our 22 year old 48v bank of
> Rolls Surrette batteries at our offgrid Design and Training Center in
> Western NY with a set of Lithium batteries.The reason for the jump to
> Lithium is because of the numerous request by clients for them over the
> past 5 year or so. By having them here onsite, this will give us a window
> into how they truly operate over time.
>
> Three questions I always ask manufacturers are, can the BMS firmware be
> upgraded in the field and/or can the BMS be swapped out in the field? Also
> is an internet connection required in order to receive warranty? FYI, Rolls
> lithium product is field swappable and does not require an internet
> connection. It seems every time we get close to making a choice on which
> lithium manufacturer to use something seems to steer us away.
>
> I couldn't agree more with Ray's statement. "but lead acid are a known
> quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite robust and predictable.
> Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning signs beforehand." Perhaps
> what the lithium manufacturers need to do is provide us installers with a
> "tool" that gives us a window into the BMS perhaps via a laptop. Maybe it
> already exists.
>
> A couple of years back we backed out of a couple of projects due to the
> fact the clients insisted on a lithium battery. I declined the projects as
> the temperature environment was wrong amongst other reasons too. I followed
> up with both projects a year later and both projects failed miserably and
> as Ray called it, the inverter manufacturer pointed the finger to the
> battery manufacturer and vice versa.
>
> Keep up the great work everyone and don't forget to donate to the wrenches
> list.
>
> Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Guy,
> Christopher
>
> On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Ray
>>
>> I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium.
>> Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS.
>>
>> But that sure sucks.
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh
>> batteries, 48 v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off
>> grid.  This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the
>> barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The RMA/ Warranty process has not been
>> smooth.  It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi,
>> and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept
>> used Li+ batteries for shipment.  To their credit, tech support has been
>> knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site.
>>
>>  Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after
>> several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage.
>> (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer
>> started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the
>> batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with
>> Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger.  I
>> checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v.  By the time
>> I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge
>> current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but
>> strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals.  It was not
>> usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no
>> loads.
>>
>> Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage
>> event.  Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback
>> FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi
>> integration guides.   BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they
>> just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed
>> = customer's fault.  I think it failed because of the voltage differential
>> between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage.  If  the BMS
>> can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on
>> industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications.
>> Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off
>> grid; its a tough gig.
>>
>> How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu
>> on this list?  Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over
>> voltage events.  Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide,
>> so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their
>> batteries.
>>
>> So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would
>> have cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set.
>> That's approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*.  Simpliphi is
>> saying they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be
>> seen.  The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3
>> weeks in sub zero weather at 9000 ft.  Also, why would we want to reinstall
>> more of these, without any assurance that this won't happen again in a
>> couple of years?
>>
>> In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a
>> complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, or
>> with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu.  I thought I was
>> providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead acid
>> batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs.  It's 2024, but
>> lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite
>> robust and predictable.  Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning
>> signs beforehand.  They also can handle below freezing weather, and I am
>> just not a fan of the whole '*battery heating do it yourself off Ebay
>> with pet heaters'* BS either.
>>
>> *Li+ is just not ready for off grid.*  It seems to work fine for folks
>> that don't rely on it, like GTB.
>>
>> At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off
>> of lead acid.   Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? We
>> were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under the
>> guise that this was NOT a *'Fly by night/ made in China*' offering.
>> Based on cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime.  I hate being
>> wrong.  I can only pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't
>> start failing on my watch.
>>
>> I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give Simpliphi a
>> chance to make this right. However, this week I heard their "diagnosis",
>> and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it was time.  <rant off>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>
>> One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS
>> failure/warranty/fix/replacement.
>>
>> Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM.
>>
>> I guess its something else we need to check on.
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an
>> Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of course
>> East Penn is good to work with. My understanding is that they do work with
>> the three phase Sol-Ark inverters.
>>
>> Brad
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Pals:
>>>
>>>
>>> Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad?
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka
>>>
>>>
>>> We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated
>>> lead-acid batteries.
>>>
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>>
>>> Miller Solar
>>>
>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>>
>>> 805-438-5600
>>>
>>> www.millersolar.com
>>>
>>> CA Lic. 773985
>>>
>>>
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>
> --
>
> Chris Schaefer’s
>
>
> *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
> *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
> <http://www.solarandwindfx.com> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com
> <chris at solarandwindfx.com>*
>
>
> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
> willing to work and give to those who would not."
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