<div dir="auto">About 4 years ago I wrote about my failure of Simplify in service 3 years. after much delay, I took each unit to shop and charged each one on bench power supply, all returned to full function and are still working today off grid system. I agree with the comments they are tricky, MorningStar knows how to charge them. </div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 8, 2024, 8:42 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Ray,<div><br></div><div>Oddly enough we're getting ready to replace our 22 year old 48v bank of Rolls Surrette batteries at our offgrid Design and Training Center in Western NY with a set of Lithium batteries.The reason for the jump to Lithium is because of the numerous request by clients for them over the past 5 year or so. By having them here onsite, this will give us a window into how they truly operate over time. </div><div><br></div><div>Three questions I always ask manufacturers are, can the BMS firmware be upgraded in the field and/or can the BMS be swapped out in the field? Also is an internet connection required in order to receive warranty? FYI, Rolls lithium product is field swappable and does not require an internet connection. It seems every time we get close to making a choice on which lithium manufacturer to use something seems to steer us away. </div><div><br></div><div>I couldn't agree more with Ray's statement. "but lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite robust and predictable. Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning signs beforehand." Perhaps what the lithium manufacturers need to do is provide us installers with a "tool" that gives us a window into the BMS perhaps via a laptop. Maybe it already exists.</div><div><br></div><div>A couple of years back we backed out of a couple of projects due to the fact the clients insisted on a lithium battery. I declined the projects as the temperature environment was wrong amongst other reasons too. I followed up with both projects a year later and both projects failed miserably and as Ray called it, the inverter manufacturer pointed the finger to the battery manufacturer and vice versa.</div><div><br></div><div>Keep up the great work everyone and don't forget to donate to the wrenches list.</div><div><br></div><div>Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Guy,</div><div>Christopher</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"></div><div dir="ltr">Hi Ray</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium. </div><div dir="ltr">Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">But that sure sucks. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Jay</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
<p>We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh
batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for
off grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom
of the barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty process has
not been smooth. It took almost a week to even get shipping info
from Simpliphi, and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues,
and get Fed Ex to accept used Li+ batteries for shipment. To
their credit, tech support has been knowledgeable, responsive, and
available by phone while on site. <br>
</p>
<p> Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month
ago, after several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down
due to low voltage. (so far, fairly typical off grid winter
situation) When the customer started the generator and tried to
revive the system, he noticed one of the batteries didn't seem to
be taking a charge, so after consulting with Simpliphi, he charged
each battery separately with a small aux charger. I checked this
charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v. By the time I
arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge
current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the
buss, but strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the
terminals. It was not usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon
connection to the inverter with no loads. <br>
</p>
<p>Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high
voltage event. Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had
both the Outback FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according
to the Simpliphi integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high
voltage recording, they just don't like the look of how their
electronics fried. Electronics failed = customer's fault. I think
it failed because of the voltage differential between the low
battery voltage and normal charge voltage. If the BMS can't
survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming
on industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid
applications. Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending
their equipment for off grid; its a tough gig.</p>
<p>How many times have we all heard the old '<i>Manu S blaming Manu
X'</i> snafu on this list? Simpliphi is saying that the XW can
have transient over voltage events. Well, that should be
mentioned in the integration guide, so we can make an informed
decision, and not use that inverter with their batteries. <br>
</p>
<p>So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries
would have cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete
new set. That's approx. <b>$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set</b>.
Simpliphi is saying they'll give us a discount on refurbished
units; that is still to be seen. The customer has been running on
an old generator for the past 3 weeks in sub zero weather at 9000
ft. Also, why would we want to reinstall more of these, without
any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of years?
</p>
<p>In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with
such a complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough
RMA process, or with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top
tier manu. I thought I was providing my customer with the best,
but now good old flooded lead acid batteries are all I'm
considering for up coming installs. It's 2024, but lead acid are
a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite robust and
predictable. Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning
signs beforehand. They also can handle below freezing weather,
and I am just not a fan of the whole '<i>battery heating do it
yourself off Ebay with pet heaters'</i> BS either. <br>
</p>
<p><b>Li+ is just not ready for off grid.</b> It seems to work fine
for folks that don't rely on it, like GTB. <br>
</p>
<p>At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too
far off of lead acid. Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at
almost $800/ kWh? We were counting on you, we sold these batteries
to many clients under the guise that this was NOT a <i>'Fly by
night/ made in China</i>' offering. Based on cycle life, this
should have lasted a lifetime. I hate being wrong. I can only
pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't start
failing on my watch. <br>
</p>
<p>I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give
Simpliphi a chance to make this right. However, this week I heard
their "diagnosis", and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it was
time. <rant off><br>
</p>
<p>Sincerely, <br>
</p>
<p>Ray Walters<br>
Remote Solar<br>
</p>
<div>On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via
RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS
failure/warranty/fix/replacement.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Some can be field installed some need to go back to
the OEM.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I guess its something else we need to check on. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Jay</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett
via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Read the warranty. Very limited
uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an Italian Co that is
somewhat condescending toward customers. But of course
East Penn is good to work with. My understanding is that
they do work with the three phase Sol-Ark inverters.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Brad</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at
4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">Pals:</span></p>
<div><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""> </span><br>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">Anyone have any experience with
this product, good or bad?</span></p>
<div><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""> </span><br>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""><a href="https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka</a></span></p>
<div><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""> </span><br>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">We have had excellent results using
their flooded and valve regulated lead-acid
batteries.</span></p>
<div><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""> </span><br>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">William</span></p>
<div><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""> </span><br>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif"">Miller
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif"">17395
Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif"">805-438-5600</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif""><a href="http://www.millersolar.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">www.millersolar.com</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif"">CA
Lic. 773985</span></p>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance</span><br><span></span><br><span>Pay optional member dues here: <a href="http://re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>Change listserver email address & settings:</span><br><span><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:</span><br><span><a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a></span><br><span><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>List rules & etiquette:</span><br><span><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>Check out or update participant bios:</span><br><span><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><span></span><br></div></blockquote></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><p style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><font face="Arial, sans-serif">Chris Schaefer’s<br></font></span><img src="https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4zwIEzRtOZdJBisBPW2ba9BZwLKpocRcDBtPtw_dLzSM8MNthtmnA5rIuBZ_I3mSXj7FKHtwYk"><br><i><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><span style="font-size:9pt">Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 </span><span style="font-size:12px"><br></span></span></i><i style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:10pt"><font color="#1f497d"><font face="Arial, sans-serif">5115
S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424<br></font></font></span></i><i style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a href="http://www.solarandwindfx.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><span style="color:blue">www.solarandwindfx.com</span></a> ~ E-mail: <span style="color:blue"><a href="mailto:chris@solarandwindfx.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">chris@solarandwindfx.com</a></span></span></i></p><p style="text-align:center"><i><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"><img src="https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4x-VMx3KNrBUjGRGaM4iKmHJ8KxC99V1SUtUEwox6UqTgarqNFHzUcmy9RMxD2D0BZ_64Nrd2s"><br></span></i></p>
<p style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:black">Thomas Jefferson,
the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will
cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give
to those who would not."</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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