[RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

Thu Feb 8 06:35:56 PST 2024

Hi Ray
We had a complete failure of 6 Simpliphi batteries with the same symptoms
you found.
Another installer had replaced the inverter with an XW and appeared to
leave the charger programing on factory defaults along with temp
compensation so when the generator was called for it would rise to
absorption at 57.6V. I considered that programming may have reverted to
defaults too as the other installer in this case was experienced and
respected. We have seen Magnum inverters with an ARC revert to default
programming and we've seen Magnum 48v programming suddenly revert to
precisely 1/4 of its settings - so it shifted to 12v values on its own??
Sometimes I find it's hard to trust the complexity of firmware and software
(especially after having dealt with garbage like the outback skybox!)

I too expected the bms to protect itself and shut down if the voltage was
high enough to do damage. It seems ridiculous that it doesn't.

You mentioned the aux charger is stable at 58v  - if this charger was used
in the past in additon to the XW it may be the culprit as 56v is typically
the max for simpliphi - the integration guides started at 56v, then
Simpliphi changed the recommendation to a lower voltage and longer
duration, only to later revise charging recommendations back to 56v for a
short duration.

Lithium manufacturers drive very precise charging recommendations, but then
we find that the equipment we use in off grid
(outback/magnum/schneider/midnite) doesn't control as tightly or precisely
as the battery manufacturer requires.

Among the challenges we found was absolutely no infrastructure  for
disposal of the failed batteries..

Hope you find reasonable resolution -
Thanks
Rich

On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Ray
>
> I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium.
> Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS.
>
> But that sure sucks.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
> We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh
> batteries, 48 v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off
> grid.  This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the
> barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The RMA/ Warranty process has not been
> smooth.  It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi,
> and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept
> used Li+ batteries for shipment.  To their credit, tech support has been
> knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site.
>
>  Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after
> several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage.
> (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer
> started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the
> batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with
> Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger.  I
> checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v.  By the time
> I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge
> current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but
> strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals.  It was not
> usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no
> loads.
>
> Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage
> event.  Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback
> FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi
> integration guides.   BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they
> just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed
> = customer's fault.  I think it failed because of the voltage differential
> between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage.  If  the BMS
> can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on
> industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications.
> Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off
> grid; its a tough gig.
>
> How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu
> on this list?  Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over
> voltage events.  Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide,
> so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their
> batteries.
>
> So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have
> cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set.  That's
> approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*.  Simpliphi is saying
> they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen.
> The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in
> sub zero weather at 9000 ft.  Also, why would we want to reinstall more of
> these, without any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of
> years?
>
> In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a
> complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, or
> with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu.  I thought I was
> providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead acid
> batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs.  It's 2024, but
> lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite
> robust and predictable.  Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning
> signs beforehand.  They also can handle below freezing weather, and I am
> just not a fan of the whole '*battery heating do it yourself off Ebay
> with pet heaters'* BS either.
>
> *Li+ is just not ready for off grid.*  It seems to work fine for folks
> that don't rely on it, like GTB.
>
> At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off
> of lead acid.   Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? We
> were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under the
> guise that this was NOT a *'Fly by night/ made in China*' offering.
> Based on cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime.  I hate being
> wrong.  I can only pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't
> start failing on my watch.
>
> I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give Simpliphi a
> chance to make this right. However, this week I heard their "diagnosis",
> and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it was time.  <rant off>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS
> failure/warranty/fix/replacement.
>
> Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM.
>
> I guess its something else we need to check on.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an
> Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of course
> East Penn is good to work with. My understanding is that they do work with
> the three phase Sol-Ark inverters.
>
> Brad
>
> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Pals:
>>
>>
>> Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad?
>>
>>
>> https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka
>>
>>
>> We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated
>> lead-acid batteries.
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
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