[RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

Thu Feb 8 06:28:23 PST 2024

I've been having the same thoughts about Li and off-grid systems. It used
to be that I would install a system and then hear back from the clients a
decade later when it was time for new batteries. Now, almost every other
week I'm dealing with Li related issues (that I feel obligated to pay for).
Same with all of the networking and IT and remote monitoring stuff.

On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 5:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Ray
>
> I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium.
> Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS.
>
> But that sure sucks.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
> We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh
> batteries, 48 v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off
> grid.  This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the
> barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The RMA/ Warranty process has not been
> smooth.  It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi,
> and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept
> used Li+ batteries for shipment.  To their credit, tech support has been
> knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site.
>
>  Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after
> several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage.
> (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer
> started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the
> batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with
> Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger.  I
> checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v.  By the time
> I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge
> current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but
> strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals.  It was not
> usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no
> loads.
>
> Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage
> event.  Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback
> FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi
> integration guides.   BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they
> just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed
> = customer's fault.  I think it failed because of the voltage differential
> between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage.  If  the BMS
> can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on
> industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications.
> Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off
> grid; its a tough gig.
>
> How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu
> on this list?  Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over
> voltage events.  Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide,
> so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their
> batteries.
>
> So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have
> cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set.  That's
> approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*.  Simpliphi is saying
> they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen.
> The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in
> sub zero weather at 9000 ft.  Also, why would we want to reinstall more of
> these, without any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of
> years?
>
> In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a
> complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, or
> with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu.  I thought I was
> providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead acid
> batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs.  It's 2024, but
> lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite
> robust and predictable.  Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning
> signs beforehand.  They also can handle below freezing weather, and I am
> just not a fan of the whole '*battery heating do it yourself off Ebay
> with pet heaters'* BS either.
>
> *Li+ is just not ready for off grid.*  It seems to work fine for folks
> that don't rely on it, like GTB.
>
> At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off
> of lead acid.   Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? We
> were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under the
> guise that this was NOT a *'Fly by night/ made in China*' offering.
> Based on cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime.  I hate being
> wrong.  I can only pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't
> start failing on my watch.
>
> I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give Simpliphi a
> chance to make this right. However, this week I heard their "diagnosis",
> and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it was time.  <rant off>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS
> failure/warranty/fix/replacement.
>
> Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM.
>
> I guess its something else we need to check on.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an
> Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of course
> East Penn is good to work with. My understanding is that they do work with
> the three phase Sol-Ark inverters.
>
> Brad
>
> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Pals:
>>
>>
>> Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad?
>>
>>
>> https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka
>>
>>
>> We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated
>> lead-acid batteries.
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>

-- 

Michael Morningstar

Morningstar Electric

PO Box 1494

Mount Shasta, CA 96067

530-921-0560

mjmorningstar at gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20240208/024be679/attachment.htm>