[RE-wrenches] Sunny Island no Longer Supports TLs - How about New Series?

cwarfel cwarfel at entech-engineering.com
Wed Apr 5 07:05:19 PDT 2017


I realize this is a technical listserv, but it is interesting to compare 
the US practices with Europe's in this area. When one looks at the 
genesis of Rapid Shutdown, and how already it is changing with the most 
recent NECs, I see the solutions not helpful from an owner's, 
installers, and minimally from a firefighter's perspective.

What would really help firefighters is if the System Directoryincluded 
the current information AND system type: MicroInverter/AC Module, String 
w/oRPS, String w/ RPS, and Bimodal.  It would provide firefighters with 
information on their level of exposure, far better than what exists 
today. We are adding this information to our directories.

Chris

On 3/26/2017 3:05 PM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote:
>
>
>
> Battery based rapid shut down is not simple. Much of it is up to the 
> AHJ. You can shut down the AC output or the battery or both. Shunt 
> trip battery breakers do not cost much more than regular battery 
> breakers. You do need to control them though. That is what the 
> Birdhouse and MNbattery disconnect module was designed to do. Yes, 
> generators can also be shut down with the Birdhouse.
>
> You may be able to use the upcoming Little SOB [Shut Off Box]  soon 
> just to shut down the PV array for battery based systems. The cost is 
> very minimal, but you will still have to deal with PV input capacitor 
> discharge times. Maybe 2 Little SOB’s, one on each end? They are very 
> inexpensive. I do not mean to sound like a sales pitch here, but it 
> seems like we are the only people working on solutions that fit these 
> needs, so you need to know about them. MidNite has about the only 
> solution at present for battery based shut down. You have all said it 
> costs too much and is too complicated. We have listened.
>
> Robin Gudgel
>
> *MidNite solar*
>
>
>
> On 3/26/2017 12:00 PM, Ray wrote:
>>
>> First, its the added cost of the disconnecting combiner, RT breakers, 
>> control boards, Main initiator, and extra labor for wiring and 
>> testing.  I'd say it ads another $2 to $3K of cost.  Not a big deal 
>> on large systems but for a smaller off grid project in the $10K 
>> range, its a huge increase in cost. Folks are just going to go DIY 
>> with junk off the internet, and the code is now under the bus.
>>
>> We've successfully argued that 690.12 only applies to the PV array 
>> circuit, not the inverter and battery output.  Which has at least 
>> kept refrigerators and heating system on during a trip. However, 
>> because charge controllers hold residual voltage in capacitors after 
>> the array is disconnected, we have had to add RT breakers at the 
>> charge controllers to comply with the 30 v in 10 sec rule.
>>
>> My main issue is safety: if the system trips, the customer must go 
>> onto the roof to manually reset the combiner box to restore power. 
>> IMO, we have inadvertently traded customer safety in the name of fire 
>> fighter safety, not a fair bargain at all.  There are numerous 
>> nuisance faults that require reset, (CAT 5 loose connection or 
>> induced noise, faulty 9 v battery, naughty neighbor) Firefighters 
>> will probably only ever be on site to strap our poor customer to a 
>> back board after they fall off the roof in the snow trying to reset 
>> their new 690.12 compliant system.
>>
>> R. Ray Walters
>> Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com
>> BS Mech Engineering, 1988
>> Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016
>> Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado
>> 303 505-8760
>> On 3/26/17 9:22 AM, Dan Fink wrote:
>>> Hello Ray -- Can you elaborate on why these battery-based projects 
>>> are getting killed here locally? Is it the misinterpretation by AHJs 
>>> that 690.12 has to disconnect the inverter from the battery bank 
>>> with giant shunt-trip breakers? If that were the case...backup 
>>> generators would have to be controlled by rapid shutdown too, and I 
>>> don't think that can of worms has been opened yet.
>>>
>>> Dan Fink
>>> Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
>>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
>>> ~ PV Installation Professional
>>> ~ Small Wind Installer
>>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
>>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
>>> 970.672.4342 <tel:970.672.4342>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Ray <ray at solarray.com 
>>> <mailto:ray at solarray.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Not to muddy the waters, but how does the SMA system deal with
>>>     690.12 Rapid Shutdown requirements in OG and GTB arrangements? 
>>>     690.12 has been killing battery based projects left and right
>>>     here in Colorado.
>>>
>>>     Thanks,
>>>
>>>     R. Ray Walters
>>>     Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com
>>>     BS Mech Engineering, 1988
>>>     Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016
>>>     Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado
>>>     303 505-8760 <tel:%28303%29%20505-8760>
>>>
>>>     On 3/25/17 6:46 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:
>>>>     Hi Howie,
>>>>
>>>>     So Jay found this from previous posts (below).  So apparently
>>>>     the -40 series will work in Off-grid mode (as long as you
>>>>     program the SBs separately to be in OG) but won't do the
>>>>     switching of modes necessary for grid-tie backup.  I plan on a
>>>>     call to SMA tech support Monday morning to get to the bottom of
>>>>     what exactly is lost without the RS485 comm.  And to see if TLs
>>>>     are still going to work as the new SIs tech sheet shows they
>>>>     are not supported.  why I have no idea but I intend to find out.
>>>>
>>>>     hope that helps.
>>>>
>>>>     Best,
>>>>
>>>>     Jeff
>>>>
>>>>>     Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>
>>>>>     *From: *Drake <drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org
>>>>>     <mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org>>
>>>>>     *Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA US 40 & AC coupling*
>>>>>     *Date: *March 13, 2017 at 10:23:56 AM PDT
>>>>>     *To: *RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>>     <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>>
>>>>>     *Reply-To: *RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>>     <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     I talked with Tim at SMA today, and the new  Sunny Boy
>>>>>     inverters will  provide taper charging with the Sunny Islands
>>>>>     even though no RS 485 communication is available. The Sunny
>>>>>     Boys need to be programmed in the off grid mode, and the Sunny
>>>>>     Islands will take care of the UL 1741 requirements.
>>>>>
>>>>>     The graph below shows the relation between frequency shift and
>>>>>     % power produced by the Sunny Boy inverters.
>>>>>     Emacs!
>>>>>
>>>>>     Drake Chamberlin
>>>>>     /Athens Electric LLC
>>>>>     OH License 44810
>>>>>     CO License 3773
>>>>>     NABCEP Certified Solar PV
>>>>>     740-448-7328 <tel:%28740%29%20448-7328>
>>>>>     /http://athens-electric.com/
>>>>>     At 11:36 AM 3/10/2017, you wrote:
>>>>>     I just checked with SMA and they do not have an RS485 card for
>>>>>     the -40 inverters. What this means is that you can set them up
>>>>>     to be permanently in off grid mode where the SB will follow
>>>>>     the frequency shift of the SI, ok for an off grid system. But
>>>>>     for grid tie with backup, the SB will not communicate with the
>>>>>     SI and will not change the SB to off grid mode. It will still
>>>>>     work like other generic AC coupled systems where the frequency
>>>>>     shift will cause the SB inverter to drop off line, but as far
>>>>>     as I know no throttling back will happen.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Brad
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     Howie Michaelson wrote:
>>>>>     I'm confused. Does this mean the -40 series are not compatible
>>>>>     with SI off grid mode? Or they don't adjust output due to
>>>>>     frequency shift? Or?
>>>>>
>>>>>     Howie
>>>>>     Howie Michaelson
>>>>>     NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
>>>>>
>>>>>     Sun Catcher
>>>>>     Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
>>>>>     VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner
>>>>>     802-272-0004 <tel:%28802%29%20272-0004>
>>>>>
>>>>>     On Mar 25, 2017 7:59 PM, "Tump" <tump at swnl.net
>>>>>     <mailto:tump at swnl.net>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>         Jeff the bad news is yer outa luck BUT they "had a work
>>>>>         around" that was discussed on the list a few weeks ago. I
>>>>>         looked quickly but didn’t see it posted. You were going to
>>>>>         install a RS 485 card/ module that had the soft ware to
>>>>>         make it work. I found this out just as these “Newest
>>>>>         latest n greatest inverters" were just coming out, looked
>>>>>         at the manual, and much to my disappointment I had to send
>>>>>         it back and educate my salesperson to this. Lucky for me I
>>>>>         was able to get the TL series. Ill keep on looking, if you
>>>>>         don’t have any luck I do have a contact at SMA…. at least
>>>>>         he was there 2 weeks ago, contact me off list. Tump
>>>>>>         On Mar 25, 2017, at 12:10 PM, Jeff Clearwater
>>>>>>         <jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com
>>>>>>         <mailto:jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         Can anyone confirm for me that the SUNNY BOY 3.0-US /
>>>>>>         3.8-US / 5.0-US / 6.0-US / 7.0-US / 7.7-US series is or
>>>>>>         is not supported by the Sunny Island in off-grid AC
>>>>>>         coupling mode?  The technical paper on the subject here
>>>>>>         http://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-18.pdf
>>>>>>         <http://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-18.pdf>
>>>>>>         does not list them but I'm hoping it's cause that paper
>>>>>>         is dated Feb '16.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         I sure hope they are because that paper shows they
>>>>>>         discontinued support the the  SUNNY BOY 3000TL-US /
>>>>>>         3800TL-US / 4000TL-US / 5000TL-US / 6000TL-US / 7000TL-US
>>>>>>         / 7700TL-US series! Why!??
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         Hope you have good news for me!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         Jeff
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         -- 
>>>>>>         Jeff Clearwater
>>>>>>         Village Power Design
>>>>>>         Renewable Energy Design & Installation
>>>>>>         Ecovillage Design Consultant
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46
>>>>>>         www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepower.com/>
>>>>>>         413-559-9763 <tel:%28413%29%20559-9763>
>>>>>>         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>>>>         List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>>>         <mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         Change listserver email address & settings:
>>>>>>         http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>>>>         <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         List-Archive:
>>>>>>         http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>>>>>>         <http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         List rules & etiquette:
>>>>>>         www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>>>>         <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         Check out or update participant bios:
>>>>>>         www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>>>>         <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>         *Tump at swnl.net**www.SWNL.net*
>>>>>>         Solarwinds Northernlights *//*
>>>>>>         */     Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/
>>>>>>         /**/207-832-7574 <tel:%28207%29%20832-7574>   Cl.
>>>>>>         610-517-8401 <tel:%28610%29%20517-8401> /*
>>>>>>         *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         */ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
>>>>>>         /**//**/  NABCEP    "Certified PV Installer"/**/
>>>>>>         /**/
>>>>>>         ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
>>>>>>         /**/        Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"/*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>>>         List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>>>
>>>>>         List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>>         <mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>>>>
>>>>>         Change listserver email address & settings:
>>>>>         http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>>>         <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org>
>>>>>
>>>>>         List-Archive:
>>>>>         http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>>>>>         <http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html>
>>>>>
>>>>>         List rules & etiquette:
>>>>>         www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>>>         <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>
>>>>>
>>>>>         Check out or update participant bios:
>>>>>         www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>>>         <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>     List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>>>
>>>>>     List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>>     <mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>>>>
>>>>>     Change listserver email address & settings:
>>>>>     http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>>>     <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org>
>>>>>
>>>>>     List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>>>>>     <http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html>
>>>>>
>>>>>     List rules & etiquette:
>>>>>     www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>>>     <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>
>>>>>
>>>>>     Check out or update participant bios:
>>>>>     www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org>
>>>>>
>>>>     -- Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Renewable Energy Design
>>>>     & Installation Ecovillage Design Consultant NABCEP™ Certified
>>>>     Solar PV Installer Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46
>>>>     www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepower.com>
>>>>     413-559-9763 <tel:%28413%29%20559-9763>
>>>>     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>
>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>     List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>>
>>>>     List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>     <mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>>>
>>>>     Change listserver email address & settings:
>>>>     http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>>     <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org>
>>>>
>>>>     List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>>>>     <http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html>
>>>>
>>>>     List rules & etiquette:
>>>>     www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>>     <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>
>>>>
>>>>     Check out or update participant bios:
>>>>     www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org>
>>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________ List sponsored
>>>     by Redwood Alliance List Address:
>>>     RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>     <mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Change listserver
>>>     email address & settings:
>>>     http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>     <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org>
>>>     List-Archive:
>>>     http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>>>     <http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html>
>>>     List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>     <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> Check out or update
>>>     participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>     <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org> 
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>>>
>>> List rules & etiquette:
>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>
>>> Check out or update participant bios:
>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
-- 
Christopher Warfel, PE
Entech Engineering, Inc.
401-466-8978
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20170405/5695db01/attachment-0002.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 27098 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20170405/5695db01/attachment-0002.jpe>


More information about the RE-wrenches mailing list