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<p><font face="Verdana">I realize this <font face="Verdana">is a
technical list<font face="Verdana">serv, but it is interesting
to compare the US prac<font face="Verdana">tices with
Europe's in this area. <font face="Verdana">W<font
face="Verdana">hen one looks at the <font
face="Verdana">genesis of Ra<font face="Verdana">pid
Sh<font face="Verdana">utdown, <font
face="Verdana">and how already i<font
face="Verdana">t is changing with the most
recent NEC<font face="Verdana">s, <font
face="Verdana">I see the solutions not
helpful from a<font face="Verdana">n o<font
face="Verdana">wner's, installers</font>,
and minimally from a fire<font
face="Verdana">figh<font
face="Verdana">ter's perspective.
<br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana">What
would really help firefighters is
if the System Directory<font
face="Verdana"> included the
current information AND system
type: MicroInverter/AC Modu<font
face="Verdana">le, String w/o<font
face="Verdana"> RPS, String
w/ R<font face="Verdana">PS,
and Bi<font face="Verdana">m</font>od<font
face="Verdana">al. I<font
face="Verdana">t wou<font
face="Verdana">ld
provide firefighters
with information o<font
face="Verdana">n
their leve<font
face="Verdana">l
of expos<font
face="Verdana">ure<font
face="Verdana">,
far better
than what
exists today.
We ar<font
face="Verdana">e
adding this
information to
our
directories.</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><br>
</p>
Chris<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/26/2017 3:05 PM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bob@midnitesolar.com">bob@midnitesolar.com</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:efc31937-8dd9-8e32-45d5-729562e88a6e@midnitesolar.com"
type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<p><br>
</p>
<p><font size="+2"><br>
</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Courier New, Courier, monospace"
size="+2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);">Battery based rapid shut down is not simple. Much of
it is up to the AHJ. You can shut down the AC output or the
battery or both. Shunt trip battery breakers do not cost
much more than regular battery breakers. You do need to
control them though. That is what the Birdhouse and
MNbattery disconnect module was designed to do. Yes,
generators can also be shut down with the Birdhouse.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="+2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><font
face="Courier New, Courier, monospace">You may be able to
use the upcoming Little SOB [Shut Off Box] soon just to
shut down the PV array for battery based systems. The cost
is very minimal, but you will still have to deal with PV
input capacitor discharge times. Maybe 2 Little SOB’s, one
on each end? They are very inexpensive. I do not mean to
sound like a sales pitch here, but it seems like we are
the only people working on solutions that fit these needs,
so you need to know about them. MidNite has about the only
solution at present for battery based shut down. You have
all said it costs too much and is too complicated. We have
listened.</font><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="+1"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><font
size="+2">Robin Gudgel</font><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><font
size="+1"><b>MidNite solar</b><br>
</font><br>
<br>
<br>
</span>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/26/2017 12:00 PM, Ray wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1871579e-94a9-9b80-9c54-dcf3a1085790@solarray.com"
type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<p>First, its the added cost of the disconnecting combiner, RT
breakers, control boards, Main initiator, and extra labor for
wiring and testing. I'd say it ads another $2 to $3K of
cost. Not a big deal on large systems but for a smaller off
grid project in the $10K range, its a huge increase in cost.
Folks are just going to go DIY with junk off the internet, and
the code is now under the bus.<br>
</p>
<p>We've successfully argued that 690.12 only applies to the PV
array circuit, not the inverter and battery output. Which has
at least kept refrigerators and heating system on during a
trip. However, because charge controllers hold residual
voltage in capacitors after the array is disconnected, we have
had to add RT breakers at the charge controllers to comply
with the 30 v in 10 sec rule. <br>
</p>
<p>My main issue is safety: if the system trips, the customer
must go onto the roof to manually reset the combiner box to
restore power. IMO, we have inadvertently traded customer
safety in the name of fire fighter safety, not a fair bargain
at all. There are numerous nuisance faults that require
reset, (CAT 5 loose connection or induced noise, faulty 9 v
battery, naughty neighbor) Firefighters will probably only
ever be on site to strap our poor customer to a back board
after they fall off the roof in the snow trying to reset their
new 690.12 compliant system.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">R. Ray Walters
Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com
BS Mech Engineering, 1988
Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016
Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/26/17 9:22 AM, Dan Fink wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAF+3LnfrCiiomkA6fgL5CFZ++j5kTeFRB-d-W=V2uFwGZQCxvQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hello Ray -- Can you elaborate on why these
battery-based projects are getting killed here locally? Is
it the misinterpretation by AHJs that 690.12 has to
disconnect the inverter from the battery bank with giant
shunt-trip breakers? If that were the case...backup
generators would have to be controlled by rapid shutdown
too, and I don't think that can of worms has been opened
yet.<br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div class="gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><span
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">Dan
Fink</span>
<div
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">Professor
of Solar Energy Technology,
Ecotech Institute</div>
<div
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">IREC
Certified Instructor™ for: </div>
<div
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">~
PV Installation Professional</div>
<div
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">~
Small Wind Installer</div>
<div
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">Executive
Director, Buckville Energy</div>
<div
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">NABCEP
Registered Continuing Education
Providers™<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:970.672.4342"
value="+19706724342"
style="color:rgb(17,85,204)"
target="_blank">970.672.4342</a></div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 8:04 PM,
Ray <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ray@solarray.com" target="_blank">ray@solarray.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>Not to muddy the waters, but how does the SMA
system deal with 690.12 Rapid Shutdown
requirements in OG and GTB arrangements? 690.12
has been killing battery based projects left and
right here in Colorado.</p>
<p>Thanks,<br>
</p>
<pre class="m_-5278478088777178352moz-signature" cols="72">R. Ray Walters
Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com
BS Mech Engineering, 1988
Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016
Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%28303%29%20505-8760" value="+13035058760" target="_blank">303 505-8760</a></pre>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div
class="m_-5278478088777178352moz-cite-prefix">On
3/25/17 6:46 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><span>Hi
Howie,<br>
<br>
So Jay found this from previous posts
(below). So apparently the -40 series
will work in Off-grid mode (as long as you
program the SBs separately to be in OG)
but won't do the switching of modes
necessary for grid-tie backup. I plan on
a call to SMA tech support Monday morning
to get to the bottom of what exactly is
lost without the RS485 comm. And to see
if TLs are still going to work as the new
SIs tech sheet shows they are not
supported. why I have no idea but I
intend to find out.<br>
<br>
hope that helps.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Jeff<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Begin forwarded message:</div>
<br
class="m_-5278478088777178352Apple-interchange-newline">
<div
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>From:
</b></span><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">Drake
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org"
target="_blank">drake.chamberlin@<wbr>redwoodalliance.org</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Subject:
</b></span><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>Re:
[RE-wrenches] SMA US 40 & AC
coupling</b><br>
</span></div>
<div
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Date:
</b></span><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">March 13,
2017 at 10:23:56 AM PDT<br>
</span></div>
<div
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>To:
</b></span><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">RE-wrenches
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-<wbr>wrenches.org</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Reply-To:
</b></span><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">RE-wrenches
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-<wbr>wrenches.org</a>><br>
</span></div>
<br>
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">I
talked with Tim at SMA today, and the
new Sunny Boy inverters will provide
taper charging with the Sunny Islands
even though no RS 485 communication is
available. The Sunny Boys need to be
programmed in the off grid mode, and
the Sunny Islands will take care of
the UL 1741 requirements.<span
class="m_-5278478088777178352Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">The
graph below shows the relation between
frequency shift and % power produced
by the Sunny Boy inverters.<span
class="m_-5278478088777178352Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<img alt="Emacs!"
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"
id="m_-5278478088777178352C98CA293-90AE-4981-A424-3D98EA3A5CE4"
src="cid:part7.EBEA2233.B871FD1A@entech-engineering.com"><span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important"><span
class="m_-5278478088777178352Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Drake
Chamberlin</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<i
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Athens
Electric LLC<br>
OH License 44810<br>
CO License 3773<br>
NABCEP Certified Solar PV<span
class="m_-5278478088777178352Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28740%29%20448-7328"
value="+17404487328" target="_blank">740-448-7328</a><br>
</i><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://athens-electric.com/"
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"
target="_blank">http://athens-electric.com/</a><span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important"><span
class="m_-5278478088777178352Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">At
11:36 AM 3/10/2017, you wrote:</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
I just checked with SMA and they do not
have an RS485 card for the -40
inverters. What this means is that you
can set them up to be permanently in off
grid mode where the SB will follow the
frequency shift of the SI, ok for an off
grid system. But for grid tie with
backup, the SB will not communicate with
the SI and will not change the SB to off
grid mode. It will still work like other
generic AC coupled systems where the
frequency shift will cause the SB
inverter to drop off line, but as far as
I know no throttling back will happen.<br>
<br>
Brad<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
Howie Michaelson wrote:</span><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">I'm confused. Does this
mean the -40 series are not compatible
with SI off grid mode? Or they don't
adjust output due to frequency shift?
Or?
<div dir="auto"><br>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature"
dir="auto">Howie<br>
Howie Michaelson<br>
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™<br>
<br>
Sun Catcher<br>
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and
Service<br>
VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28802%29%20272-0004"
value="+18022720004"
target="_blank">802-272-0004</a></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mar 25, 2017
7:59 PM, "Tump" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:tump@swnl.net"
target="_blank">tump@swnl.net</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Jeff
the bad news is yer outa luck BUT
they "had a work around" that was
discussed on the list a few weeks
ago. I looked quickly but didn’t
see it posted. You were going to
install a RS 485 card/ module that
had the soft ware to make it work.
I found this out just as these
“Newest latest n greatest
inverters" were just coming out,
looked at the manual, and much to
my disappointment I had to send it
back and educate my salesperson to
this. Lucky for me I was able to
get the TL series. Ill keep on
looking, if you don’t have any
luck I do have a contact at SMA….
at least he was there 2 weeks ago,
contact me off list. Tump
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Mar 25, 2017, at
12:10 PM, Jeff Clearwater
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jeffc@villagepowerdesign.com"
target="_blank">jeffc@villagepowerdesign.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="m_-5278478088777178352m_-8682180123997891521Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"
bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000">
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">All,<br>
<br>
Can anyone confirm for
me that the SUNNY BOY
3.0-US / 3.8-US /
5.0-US / 6.0-US /
7.0-US / 7.7-US series
<span
style="font-weight:bold">is
or is not</span>
supported by the Sunny
Island in off-grid AC
coupling mode? The
technical paper on the
subject here <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-18.pdf"
target="_blank">http://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB<wbr>-OffGrid-TI-US-en-18.pdf</a>
does not list them but
I'm hoping it's cause
that paper is dated
Feb '16.<br>
<br>
I sure hope they are
because that paper
shows they
discontinued support
the the SUNNY BOY
3000TL-US / 3800TL-US
/ 4000TL-US /
5000TL-US / 6000TL-US
/ 7000TL-US /
7700TL-US series!
Why!??<br>
<br>
Hope you have good
news for me!<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Jeff<span></span><br>
<br>
<div
class="m_-5278478088777178352m_-8682180123997891521moz-signature">--
<br>
<span><span
style="font-family:monospace">Jeff
Clearwater</span><br
style="font-family:monospace">
<span
style="font-family:monospace">
Village Power
Design</span><br
style="font-family:monospace">
<span
style="font-family:monospace">
Renewable Energy
Design &
Installation</span><br>
Ecovillage Design
Consultant<br
style="font-family:monospace">
<span
style="font-family:monospace"></span><br
style="font-family:monospace">
<span
style="font-family:monospace">Licensed
Solar Contractor
in CA - C-46</span><br
style="font-family:monospace">
<span
style="font-family:monospace">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_-5278478088777178352m_-8682180123997891521moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.villagepower.com/" target="_blank">www.villagepowerdesign.com</a></span><br
style="font-family:monospace">
<span
style="font-family:monospace">
<span
class="m_-5278478088777178352m_-8682180123997891521__postbox-detected-contentm_-8682180123997891521__postbox-detected-phone"
style="display:inline;font-size:inherit;padding:0pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28413%29%20559-9763" value="+14135599763" target="_blank">413-559-9763</a></span></span><br>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br>
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********
MAINE'S
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********<br>
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<div class="m_-5278478088777178352moz-signature">--
<span><span style="font-family:monospace">Jeff Clearwater</span>
<span style="font-family:monospace">
Village Power Design</span>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Christopher Warfel, PE
Entech Engineering, Inc.
401-466-8978</pre></body></html>