[RE-wrenches] Sunny Island no Longer Supports TLs - How about New Series?
bob at midnitesolar.com
bob at midnitesolar.com
Sun Mar 26 12:05:02 PDT 2017
Battery based rapid shut down is not simple. Much of it is up to the
AHJ. You can shut down the AC output or the battery or both. Shunt trip
battery breakers do not cost much more than regular battery breakers.
You do need to control them though. That is what the Birdhouse and
MNbattery disconnect module was designed to do. Yes, generators can also
be shut down with the Birdhouse.
You may be able to use the upcoming Little SOB [Shut Off Box] soon just
to shut down the PV array for battery based systems. The cost is very
minimal, but you will still have to deal with PV input capacitor
discharge times. Maybe 2 Little SOB’s, one on each end? They are very
inexpensive. I do not mean to sound like a sales pitch here, but it
seems like we are the only people working on solutions that fit these
needs, so you need to know about them. MidNite has about the only
solution at present for battery based shut down. You have all said it
costs too much and is too complicated. We have listened.
Robin Gudgel
*MidNite solar*
On 3/26/2017 12:00 PM, Ray wrote:
>
> First, its the added cost of the disconnecting combiner, RT breakers,
> control boards, Main initiator, and extra labor for wiring and
> testing. I'd say it ads another $2 to $3K of cost. Not a big deal on
> large systems but for a smaller off grid project in the $10K range,
> its a huge increase in cost. Folks are just going to go DIY with junk
> off the internet, and the code is now under the bus.
>
> We've successfully argued that 690.12 only applies to the PV array
> circuit, not the inverter and battery output. Which has at least kept
> refrigerators and heating system on during a trip. However, because
> charge controllers hold residual voltage in capacitors after the array
> is disconnected, we have had to add RT breakers at the charge
> controllers to comply with the 30 v in 10 sec rule.
>
> My main issue is safety: if the system trips, the customer must go
> onto the roof to manually reset the combiner box to restore power.
> IMO, we have inadvertently traded customer safety in the name of fire
> fighter safety, not a fair bargain at all. There are numerous
> nuisance faults that require reset, (CAT 5 loose connection or induced
> noise, faulty 9 v battery, naughty neighbor) Firefighters will
> probably only ever be on site to strap our poor customer to a back
> board after they fall off the roof in the snow trying to reset their
> new 690.12 compliant system.
>
> R. Ray Walters
> Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com
> BS Mech Engineering, 1988
> Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016
> Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado
> 303 505-8760
> On 3/26/17 9:22 AM, Dan Fink wrote:
>> Hello Ray -- Can you elaborate on why these battery-based projects
>> are getting killed here locally? Is it the misinterpretation by AHJs
>> that 690.12 has to disconnect the inverter from the battery bank with
>> giant shunt-trip breakers? If that were the case...backup generators
>> would have to be controlled by rapid shutdown too, and I don't think
>> that can of worms has been opened yet.
>>
>> Dan Fink
>> Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
>> ~ PV Installation Professional
>> ~ Small Wind Installer
>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
>> 970.672.4342 <tel:970.672.4342>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Ray <ray at solarray.com
>> <mailto:ray at solarray.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Not to muddy the waters, but how does the SMA system deal with
>> 690.12 Rapid Shutdown requirements in OG and GTB arrangements?
>> 690.12 has been killing battery based projects left and right
>> here in Colorado.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> R. Ray Walters
>> Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com
>> BS Mech Engineering, 1988
>> Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016
>> Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado
>> 303 505-8760 <tel:%28303%29%20505-8760>
>>
>> On 3/25/17 6:46 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:
>>> Hi Howie,
>>>
>>> So Jay found this from previous posts (below). So apparently
>>> the -40 series will work in Off-grid mode (as long as you
>>> program the SBs separately to be in OG) but won't do the
>>> switching of modes necessary for grid-tie backup. I plan on a
>>> call to SMA tech support Monday morning to get to the bottom of
>>> what exactly is lost without the RS485 comm. And to see if TLs
>>> are still going to work as the new SIs tech sheet shows they are
>>> not supported. why I have no idea but I intend to find out.
>>>
>>> hope that helps.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>
>>>> *From: *Drake <drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org
>>>> <mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org>>
>>>> *Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA US 40 & AC coupling*
>>>> *Date: *March 13, 2017 at 10:23:56 AM PDT
>>>> *To: *RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>> <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>>
>>>> *Reply-To: *RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>> <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>>
>>>>
>>>> I talked with Tim at SMA today, and the new Sunny Boy
>>>> inverters will provide taper charging with the Sunny Islands
>>>> even though no RS 485 communication is available. The Sunny
>>>> Boys need to be programmed in the off grid mode, and the Sunny
>>>> Islands will take care of the UL 1741 requirements.
>>>>
>>>> The graph below shows the relation between frequency shift and
>>>> % power produced by the Sunny Boy inverters.
>>>> Emacs!
>>>>
>>>> Drake Chamberlin
>>>> /Athens Electric LLC
>>>> OH License 44810
>>>> CO License 3773
>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV
>>>> 740-448-7328 <tel:%28740%29%20448-7328>
>>>> /http://athens-electric.com/
>>>> At 11:36 AM 3/10/2017, you wrote:
>>>> I just checked with SMA and they do not have an RS485 card for
>>>> the -40 inverters. What this means is that you can set them up
>>>> to be permanently in off grid mode where the SB will follow the
>>>> frequency shift of the SI, ok for an off grid system. But for
>>>> grid tie with backup, the SB will not communicate with the SI
>>>> and will not change the SB to off grid mode. It will still work
>>>> like other generic AC coupled systems where the frequency shift
>>>> will cause the SB inverter to drop off line, but as far as I
>>>> know no throttling back will happen.
>>>>
>>>> Brad
>>>
>>>
>>> Howie Michaelson wrote:
>>>> I'm confused. Does this mean the -40 series are not compatible
>>>> with SI off grid mode? Or they don't adjust output due to
>>>> frequency shift? Or?
>>>>
>>>> Howie
>>>> Howie Michaelson
>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
>>>>
>>>> Sun Catcher
>>>> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
>>>> VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner
>>>> 802-272-0004 <tel:%28802%29%20272-0004>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 25, 2017 7:59 PM, "Tump" <tump at swnl.net
>>>> <mailto:tump at swnl.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Jeff the bad news is yer outa luck BUT they "had a work
>>>> around" that was discussed on the list a few weeks ago. I
>>>> looked quickly but didn’t see it posted. You were going to
>>>> install a RS 485 card/ module that had the soft ware to
>>>> make it work. I found this out just as these “Newest latest
>>>> n greatest inverters" were just coming out, looked at the
>>>> manual, and much to my disappointment I had to send it back
>>>> and educate my salesperson to this. Lucky for me I was able
>>>> to get the TL series. Ill keep on looking, if you don’t
>>>> have any luck I do have a contact at SMA…. at least he was
>>>> there 2 weeks ago, contact me off list. Tump
>>>>> On Mar 25, 2017, at 12:10 PM, Jeff Clearwater
>>>>> <jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com
>>>>> <mailto:jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> All,
>>>>>
>>>>> Can anyone confirm for me that the SUNNY BOY 3.0-US /
>>>>> 3.8-US / 5.0-US / 6.0-US / 7.0-US / 7.7-US series is or is
>>>>> not supported by the Sunny Island in off-grid AC coupling
>>>>> mode? The technical paper on the subject here
>>>>> http://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-18.pdf
>>>>> <http://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-18.pdf>
>>>>> does not list them but I'm hoping it's cause that paper is
>>>>> dated Feb '16.
>>>>>
>>>>> I sure hope they are because that paper shows they
>>>>> discontinued support the the SUNNY BOY 3000TL-US /
>>>>> 3800TL-US / 4000TL-US / 5000TL-US / 6000TL-US / 7000TL-US
>>>>> / 7700TL-US series! Why!??
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope you have good news for me!
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jeff Clearwater
>>>>> Village Power Design
>>>>> Renewable Energy Design & Installation
>>>>> Ecovillage Design Consultant
>>>>>
>>>>> Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46
>>>>> www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepower.com/>
>>>>> 413-559-9763 <tel:%28413%29%20559-9763>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>> *Tump at swnl.net**www.SWNL.net*
>>>>> Solarwinds Northernlights *//*
>>>>> */ Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/
>>>>> /**/207-832-7574 <tel:%28207%29%20832-7574> Cl.
>>>>> 610-517-8401 <tel:%28610%29%20517-8401> /*
>>>>> *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/*
>>>>>
>>>>> */ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
>>>>> /**//**/ NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"/**/
>>>>> /**/
>>>>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
>>>>> /**/ Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"/*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>> -- Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Renewable Energy Design
>>> & Installation Ecovillage Design Consultant NABCEP™ Certified
>>> Solar PV Installer Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46
>>> www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepower.com>
>>> 413-559-9763 <tel:%28413%29%20559-9763>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
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