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        size="+2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73,

          125);">Battery based rapid shut down is not simple. Much of it

          is up to the AHJ. You can shut down the AC output or the

          battery or both. Shunt trip battery breakers do not cost much

          more than regular battery breakers. You do need to control

          them though. That is what the Birdhouse and MNbattery

          disconnect module was designed to do. Yes, generators can also

          be shut down with the Birdhouse.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="+2"><span

style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><font

            face="Courier New, Courier, monospace">You may be able to

            use the upcoming Little SOB [Shut Off Box]  soon just to

            shut down the PV array for battery based systems. The cost

            is very minimal, but you will still have to deal with PV

            input capacitor discharge times. Maybe 2 Little SOB’s, one

            on each end? They are very inexpensive. I do not mean to

            sound like a sales pitch here, but it seems like we are the

            only people working on solutions that fit these needs, so

            you need to know about them. MidNite has about the only

            solution at present for battery based shut down. You have

            all said it costs too much and is too complicated. We have

            listened.</font><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="+1"><span

style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><font

            size="+2">Robin Gudgel</font><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

    <span

style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><font

        size="+1"><b>MidNite solar</b><br>

      </font><br>

      <br>

      <br>

    </span>

    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/26/2017 12:00 PM, Ray wrote:<br>

    </div>

    <blockquote

      cite="mid:1871579e-94a9-9b80-9c54-dcf3a1085790@solarray.com"

      type="cite">

      <meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"

        http-equiv="Content-Type">

      <p>First, its the added cost of the disconnecting combiner, RT

        breakers, control boards, Main initiator, and extra labor for

        wiring and testing.  I'd say it ads another $2 to $3K of cost. 

        Not a big deal on large systems but for a smaller off grid

        project in the $10K range, its a huge increase in cost.  Folks

        are just going to go DIY with junk off the internet, and the

        code is now under the bus.<br>

      </p>

      <p>We've successfully argued that 690.12 only applies to the PV

        array circuit, not the inverter and battery output.  Which has

        at least kept refrigerators and heating system on during a trip.

        However, because charge controllers hold residual voltage in

        capacitors after the array is disconnected, we have had to add

        RT breakers at the charge controllers to comply with the 30 v in

        10 sec rule.  <br>

      </p>

      <p>My main issue is safety: if the system trips, the customer must

        go onto the roof to manually reset the combiner box to restore

        power. IMO, we have inadvertently traded customer safety in the

        name of fire fighter safety, not a fair bargain at all.  There

        are numerous nuisance faults that require reset, (CAT 5 loose

        connection or induced noise, faulty 9 v battery, naughty

        neighbor) Firefighters will probably only ever be on site to

        strap our poor customer to a back board after they fall off the

        roof in the snow trying to reset their new 690.12 compliant

        system.<br>

      </p>

      <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">R. Ray Walters

Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com

BS Mech Engineering, 1988

Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016

Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado

303 505-8760</pre>

      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/26/17 9:22 AM, Dan Fink wrote:<br>

      </div>

      <blockquote

cite="mid:CAF+3LnfrCiiomkA6fgL5CFZ++j5kTeFRB-d-W=V2uFwGZQCxvQ@mail.gmail.com"

        type="cite">

        <div dir="ltr">Hello Ray -- Can you elaborate on why these

          battery-based projects are getting killed here locally? Is it

          the misinterpretation by AHJs that 690.12 has to disconnect

          the inverter from the battery bank with giant shunt-trip

          breakers? If that were the case...backup generators would have

          to be controlled by rapid shutdown too, and I don't think that

          can of worms has been opened yet.<br>

          <div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">

            <div>

              <div class="gmail_signature"

                data-smartmail="gmail_signature">

                <div dir="ltr">

                  <div>

                    <div dir="ltr">

                      <div>

                        <div dir="ltr">

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                              <div>

                                <div dir="ltr">

                                  <div><span

                                      style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">Dan

                                      Fink</span>

                                    <div

                                      style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">Professor

                                      of Solar Energy Technology,

                                      Ecotech Institute</div>

                                    <div

                                      style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">IREC

                                      Certified Instructor™ for: </div>

                                    <div

                                      style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">~

                                      PV Installation Professional</div>

                                    <div

                                      style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">~

                                      Small Wind Installer</div>

                                    <div

                                      style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">Executive

                                      Director, Buckville Energy</div>

                                    <div

                                      style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">NABCEP

                                      Registered Continuing Education

                                      Providers™<br>

                                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"

                                        href="tel:970.672.4342"

                                        value="+19706724342"

                                        style="color:rgb(17,85,204)"

                                        target="_blank">970.672.4342</a></div>

                                    <br>

                                     </div>

                                </div>

                              </div>

                            </div>

                          </div>

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                    </div>

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              </div>

            </div>

            <br>

            <div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 8:04 PM,

              Ray <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"

                  href="mailto:ray@solarray.com" target="_blank">ray@solarray.com</a>></span>

              wrote:<br>

              <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0

                .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

                <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">

                  <p>Not to muddy the waters, but how does the SMA

                    system deal with 690.12 Rapid Shutdown requirements

                    in OG and GTB arrangements?  690.12 has been killing

                    battery based projects left and right here in

                    Colorado.</p>

                  <p>Thanks,<br>

                  </p>

                  <pre class="m_-5278478088777178352moz-signature" cols="72">R. Ray Walters

Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com

BS Mech Engineering, 1988

Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016

Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado

<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%28303%29%20505-8760" value="+13035058760" target="_blank">303 505-8760</a></pre>

                  <div>

                    <div class="h5">

                      <div class="m_-5278478088777178352moz-cite-prefix">On

                        3/25/17 6:46 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:<br>

                      </div>

                      <blockquote type="cite">

                        <div

                          style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><span>Hi

                            Howie,<br>

                            <br>

                            So Jay found this from previous posts

                            (below).  So apparently the -40 series will

                            work in Off-grid mode (as long as you

                            program the SBs separately to be in OG) but

                            won't do the switching of modes necessary

                            for grid-tie backup.  I plan on a call to

                            SMA tech support Monday morning to get to

                            the bottom of what exactly is lost without

                            the RS485 comm.  And to see if TLs are still

                            going to work as the new SIs tech sheet

                            shows they are not supported.  why I have no

                            idea but I intend to find out.<br>

                            <br>

                            hope that helps.<br>

                            <br>

                            Best,<br>

                            <br>

                            Jeff<br>

                            <br>

                            <blockquote type="cite">

                              <div>Begin forwarded message:</div>

                              <br

                                class="m_-5278478088777178352Apple-interchange-newline">

                              <div

style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span

style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica

                                  Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>From:

                                  </b></span><span

                                  style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica

                                  Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">Drake <<a

                                    moz-do-not-send="true"

                                    href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org"

                                    target="_blank">drake.chamberlin@<wbr>redwoodalliance.org</a>><br>

                                </span></div>

                              <div

style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span

style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica

                                  Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Subject:

                                  </b></span><span

                                  style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica

                                  Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>Re:

                                    [RE-wrenches] SMA US 40 & AC

                                    coupling</b><br>

                                </span></div>

                              <div

style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span

style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica

                                  Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Date:

                                  </b></span><span

                                  style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica

                                  Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">March 13,

                                  2017 at 10:23:56 AM PDT<br>

                                </span></div>

                              <div

style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span

style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica

                                  Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>To:

                                  </b></span><span

                                  style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica

                                  Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">RE-wrenches

                                  <<a moz-do-not-send="true"

                                    href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"

                                    target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-<wbr>wrenches.org</a>><br>

                                </span></div>

                              <div

style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span

style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica

                                  Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Reply-To:

                                  </b></span><span

                                  style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica

                                  Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">RE-wrenches

                                  <<a moz-do-not-send="true"

                                    href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"

                                    target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-<wbr>wrenches.org</a>><br>

                                </span></div>

                              <br>

                              <span

style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">I

                                talked with Tim at SMA today, and the

                                new  Sunny Boy inverters will  provide

                                taper charging with the Sunny Islands

                                even though no RS 485 communication is

                                available. The Sunny Boys need to be

                                programmed in the off grid mode, and the

                                Sunny Islands will take care of the UL

                                1741 requirements.<span

                                  class="m_-5278478088777178352Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br

style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">

                              <br

style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">

                              <span

style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">The

                                graph below shows the relation between

                                frequency shift and % power produced by

                                the Sunny Boy inverters.<span

                                  class="m_-5278478088777178352Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br

style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">

                              <img alt="Emacs!"

style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"

id="m_-5278478088777178352C98CA293-90AE-4981-A424-3D98EA3A5CE4"

                                src="cid:part7.AA2A7833.D8999BD3@midnitesolar.com"><span

style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important"><span

class="m_-5278478088777178352Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br

style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">

                              <br

style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">

                              <span

style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Drake

                                Chamberlin</span><br

style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">

                              <i

style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Athens

                                Electric LLC<br>

                                OH License 44810<br>

                                CO License 3773<br>

                                NABCEP Certified Solar PV<span

                                  class="m_-5278478088777178352Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>

                                <a moz-do-not-send="true"

                                  href="tel:%28740%29%20448-7328"

                                  value="+17404487328" target="_blank">740-448-7328</a><br>

                              </i><a moz-do-not-send="true"

                                href="http://athens-electric.com/"

style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"

                                target="_blank">http://athens-electric.com/</a><span

style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important"><span

class="m_-5278478088777178352Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br

style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">

                              <span

style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">At

                                11:36 AM 3/10/2017, you wrote:</span><br

style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">

                              I just checked with SMA and they do not

                              have an RS485 card for the -40 inverters.

                              What this means is that you can set them

                              up to be permanently in off grid mode

                              where the SB will follow the frequency

                              shift of the SI, ok for an off grid

                              system. But for grid tie with backup, the

                              SB will not communicate with the SI and

                              will not change the SB to off grid mode.

                              It will still work like other generic AC

                              coupled systems where the frequency shift

                              will cause the SB inverter to drop off

                              line, but as far as I know no throttling

                              back will happen.<br>

                              <br>

                              Brad<br>

                            </blockquote>

                            <br>

                            <br>

                            Howie Michaelson wrote:</span><br>

                          <blockquote type="cite">

                            <div dir="auto">I'm confused. Does this mean

                              the -40 series are not compatible with SI

                              off grid mode? Or they don't adjust output

                              due to frequency shift? Or?

                              <div dir="auto"><br>

                                <div data-smartmail="gmail_signature"

                                  dir="auto">Howie<br>

                                  Howie Michaelson<br>

                                  NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™<br>

                                  <br>

                                  Sun Catcher<br>

                                  Renewable Energy Systems Sales and

                                  Service<br>

                                  VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner<br>

                                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"

                                    href="tel:%28802%29%20272-0004"

                                    value="+18022720004" target="_blank">802-272-0004</a></div>

                              </div>

                            </div>

                            <div class="gmail_extra"><br>

                              <div class="gmail_quote">On Mar 25, 2017

                                7:59 PM, "Tump" <<a

                                  moz-do-not-send="true"

                                  href="mailto:tump@swnl.net"

                                  target="_blank">tump@swnl.net</a>>

                                wrote:<br type="attribution">

                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"

                                  style="margin:0 0 0

                                  .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc

                                  solid;padding-left:1ex">

                                  <div style="word-wrap:break-word">Jeff

                                    the bad news is yer outa luck BUT

                                    they "had a work around" that was

                                    discussed on the list a few weeks

                                    ago. I looked quickly but didn’t see

                                    it posted. You were going to install

                                    a RS 485 card/ module that had the

                                    soft ware to make it work. I found

                                    this out just as these “Newest

                                    latest n greatest inverters" were

                                    just coming out, looked at the

                                    manual, and much to my

                                    disappointment I had to send it back

                                    and educate my salesperson to this.

                                    Lucky for me I was able to get the

                                    TL series. Ill keep on looking, if

                                    you don’t have any luck I do have a

                                    contact at SMA…. at least he was

                                    there 2 weeks ago, contact me off

                                    list. Tump

                                    <div>

                                      <div>

                                        <blockquote type="cite">

                                          <div>On Mar 25, 2017, at 12:10

                                            PM, Jeff Clearwater <<a

                                              moz-do-not-send="true"

                                              href="mailto:jeffc@villagepowerdesign.com"

                                              target="_blank">jeffc@villagepowerdesign.com</a>>

                                            wrote:</div>

                                          <br

class="m_-5278478088777178352m_-8682180123997891521Apple-interchange-newline">

                                          <div>

                                            <div

                                              style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"

                                              bgcolor="#FFFFFF"

                                              text="#000000">

                                              <div

                                                style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">All,<br>

                                                <br>

                                                Can anyone confirm for

                                                me that the SUNNY BOY

                                                3.0-US / 3.8-US / 5.0-US

                                                / 6.0-US / 7.0-US /

                                                7.7-US series <span

                                                  style="font-weight:bold">is

                                                  or is not</span>

                                                supported by the Sunny

                                                Island in off-grid AC

                                                coupling mode?  The

                                                technical paper on the

                                                subject here <a

                                                  moz-do-not-send="true"

href="http://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-18.pdf"

                                                  target="_blank">http://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB<wbr>-OffGrid-TI-US-en-18.pdf</a>  

                                                does not list them but

                                                I'm hoping it's cause

                                                that paper is dated Feb

                                                '16.<br>

                                                <br>

                                                I sure hope they are

                                                because that paper shows

                                                they discontinued

                                                support the the  SUNNY

                                                BOY 3000TL-US /

                                                3800TL-US / 4000TL-US /

                                                5000TL-US / 6000TL-US /

                                                7000TL-US / 7700TL-US

                                                series!  Why!??<br>

                                                <br>

                                                Hope you have good news

                                                for me!<br>

                                                <br>

                                                Best,<br>

                                                <br>

                                                Jeff<span></span><br>

                                                <br>

                                                <div

                                                  class="m_-5278478088777178352m_-8682180123997891521moz-signature">--

                                                  <br>

                                                  <span><span

                                                      style="font-family:monospace">Jeff

                                                      Clearwater</span><br

style="font-family:monospace">

                                                    <span

                                                      style="font-family:monospace">

                                                      Village Power

                                                      Design</span><br

                                                      style="font-family:monospace">

                                                    <span

                                                      style="font-family:monospace">

                                                      Renewable Energy

                                                      Design &

                                                      Installation</span><br>

                                                    Ecovillage Design

                                                    Consultant<br

                                                      style="font-family:monospace">

                                                    <span

                                                      style="font-family:monospace"></span><br

style="font-family:monospace">

                                                    <span

                                                      style="font-family:monospace">Licensed

                                                      Solar Contractor

                                                      in CA - C-46</span><br

style="font-family:monospace">

                                                    <span

                                                      style="font-family:monospace">

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br>

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                                                          <div><span

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                                                                        </i></b></span><b><i>Blair

                                                          "TUMP" May</i></b></div>

                                                          <p><span

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                                                           ******** 

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