[RE-wrenches] Fwd: RE: Grid neutral

Sat Nov 26 07:32:54 PST 2016

Allen,

Back when people used to read books to learn, at least you had to spend 
several hours studying something, then you could be 50% an expert. Now 
with the interwebs, watch only at least the first 20 minutes of a 
YouTube video and you can have an unshakeable conviction in a new belief 
as truth.

If you are off grid, what do yo care about the structure of the utility 
anyway. None of use use "grid" power directly, but always through some 
form of power transformation.

There is no "flow" of current from the home all the way back to the 
power plant, only the impression of electromotive force. The electron 
lighting my lamp now moves only several hundred feet back toward the 
power plant before after one half of one sixtieth of a second, it flows 
back away from the power plant, a perpetual prisoner of the copper wire 
near my home.

The grid is not what it was when Tesla first balanced all the loads in a 
3-phase system so no current flowed in the neutral. Massive distortion 
caused by solid state electronic equipment now makes the job of 
balancing the neutral complex in ways I don't even understand. I would 
imagine that up-sizing the neutral can only help, but I might be prone 
to using a impact driver to tighten a 24 gauge wire into a cheap plastic 
terminal block.

Still, it does make sense to me to make the neutral in a small off-grid 
power system sized equivalent to the phase conductors to protect against 
the loss of all countervailing forces that would otherwise reduce the 
current in the neutral.

Mark

On 11/25/2016 5:27 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
> Wrenches,
> Is there such a thing as a "grid neutral"? I have been providing 
> design support to a client for a large off grid system; a prepper, 
> rare in these parts. He claims that utility current is carried in part 
> through the ground and in part through a neutral conductor, and such a 
> "utility neutral" is deliberately undersized. At first I pushed back 
> (see below). Now I just wonder what Wrenches more knowledgeable than I 
> am will say.
> Thank you,
> Allan
>
> *Allan Sindelar*
> allan at sindelarsolar.com <mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com>
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> *505 780-2738 cell*
>
> **
>
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Date: 	Thu, 24 Nov 2016 11:25:36 -0700
>
>
> Allan
>
> Happy thanksgiving. Sorry for the slow reply; overwhelmed here.
>
> All wet sorry. If you look at the power lines you will see two or 
> three wires at top of pole and the one smaller one a little ways down 
> the pole. This is the power station neutral.
>
> The hots bidirectional is an explanation that helps people understand 
> current but is not totally clear.
>
> Even if you use that visualization in order for the electrons on the 
> hot to oscillate they heed a path to oscillate into and out of
>
> That is the “neutral”.
>
> Bottom line is from the power station and in your home you have at 
> least one hot and one neutral.
>
> You can actually use the hot to light up a lite bulb by connecting the 
> other side of the lite bulb to the earth.
>
> This one way you can get electrocuted.
>
> I touched the hot side of a 220 circuit and the current went thru me 
> and into the earth…not much fun.
>
> This has been openly publicly discussed and one of the electrical 
> association advised the power companies to increase the size of the 
> neutral to solve many issues, such as cows giving less milk and 
> problems with electric current in homes. The power companies even 
> openly discuss this.
>
> In *remote rural areas* of Australia, I have seen electricity 
> distribution using SWER (Single-Wire Earth Return); just one wire is 
> fed to the property at a high voltage, with the current returning via 
> the ground.  At the property, a transformer turns the high voltage 
> into normal residential voltages on a pair of wires (230VAC in 
> Australia vs 2x115V in some other countries). But this SWER system is 
> inefficient, and the supply voltage is poorly regulated; it is a rare 
> exception - it is only done because of the high cost of delivering two 
> wires in remote areas.
>
> In *metropolitan areas*, you will typically see 4 wires passing down 
> the street. This consists of three phases of "Active", plus a 
> "Neutral". You could /imagine/ the Active carrying current "from" the 
> power grid, and the Neutral carrying the current "back to" the power 
> grid (even though the current flow is symmetrical).
>
> There is lots of info online if you wish to learn more about this.
>
> Take care, Robert
>
> *From:*Allan Sindelar [mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com]
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 23, 2016 10:18 PM
>
> Robert,
> I'm neither an electrical engineer or a utility employee, so I may be 
> all wet here, and if so please dry me off with a straight-up 
> explanation. But this whole argument seems specious to me, as it 
> addresses a "grid neutral".
>
> My reasoning is this - there is no such animal as a "grid neutral" in 
> utility lines, so how is this issue even relevant? The "hots" are 
> bidirectional; only when the utility power is stepped down at the 
> transformer at the home is a reference neutral created. To say that 
> the current "cannot all go back thru the neutral since it is not large 
> enough BY DESIGN" seems to me an absurd concept since there is no 
> neutral in utility power distribution.
>
> Am I missing something?
> Allan
>
> On 10/2/2016 7:51 PM, Robert wrote:
>
>     Allan
>
>     Here is the info I said I would send:
>     _https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJOB2FIqUiQ_. Listen about 20
>     minutes at least.
>
>     All current that goes “out” on the two residential or three
>     commercial hots goes back on the grid neutral
>
>     AND thru the ground'. It cannot all go back thru the neutral since
>     it is not large enough  BY DESIGN. So…. That means we really don’t
>     have a clean ground anymore.
>
>     Thank you for your time today. It is enjoyable to speak with you.
>
>
>
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