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<p>Allen,</p>
<p>Back when people used to read books to learn, at least you had to
spend several hours studying something, then you could be 50% an
expert. Now with the interwebs, watch only at least the first 20
minutes of a YouTube video and you can have an unshakeable
conviction in a new belief as truth.</p>
<p>If you are off grid, what do yo care about the structure of the
utility anyway. None of use use "grid" power directly, but always
through some form of power transformation.</p>
<p>There is no "flow" of current from the home all the way back to
the power plant, only the impression of electromotive force. The
electron lighting my lamp now moves only several hundred feet back
toward the power plant before after one half of one sixtieth of a
second, it flows back away from the power plant, a perpetual
prisoner of the copper wire near my home.</p>
<p>The grid is not what it was when Tesla first balanced all the
loads in a 3-phase system so no current flowed in the neutral.
Massive distortion caused by solid state electronic equipment now
makes the job of balancing the neutral complex in ways I don't
even understand. I would imagine that up-sizing the neutral can
only help, but I might be prone to using a impact driver to
tighten a 24 gauge wire into a cheap plastic terminal block.</p>
<p>Still, it does make sense to me to make the neutral in a small
off-grid power system sized equivalent to the phase conductors to
protect against the loss of all countervailing forces that would
otherwise reduce the current in the neutral.</p>
<p>Mark<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/25/2016 5:27 PM, Allan Sindelar
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:d5697abf-ed47-a6e4-c622-26a01eeb1d51@sindelarsolar.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
Wrenches,<br>
Is there such a thing as a "grid neutral"? I have been providing
design support to a client for a large off grid system; a prepper,
rare in these parts. He claims that utility current is carried in
part through the ground and in part through a neutral conductor,
and such a "utility neutral" is deliberately undersized. At first
I pushed back (see below). Now I just wonder what Wrenches more
knowledgeable than I am will say.<br>
Thank you,<br>
Allan<br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Allan Sindelar</b><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:allan@sindelarsolar.com">allan@sindelarsolar.com</a></span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">NABCEP Certified PV
Installation Professional<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder (Retired), <span
style="mso-bidi-font-weight:bold">Positive Energy, Inc.</span><br>
<b>505 780-2738 cell</b><br
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<td>Thu, 24 Nov 2016 11:25:36 -0700</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Allan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Happy
thanksgiving. Sorry for the slow reply; overwhelmed here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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wet sorry. If you look at the power lines you will see two
or three wires at top of pole and the one smaller one a
little ways down the pole. This is the power station
neutral.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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hots bidirectional is an explanation that helps people
understand current but is not totally clear.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Even
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on the hot to oscillate they heed a path to oscillate into
and out of<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Bottom
line is from the power station and in your home you have
at least one hot and one neutral.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You
can actually use the hot to light up a lite bulb by
connecting the other side of the lite bulb to the earth.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">This
one way you can get electrocuted.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
touched the hot side of a 220 circuit and the current went
thru me and into the earth…not much fun.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">This
has been openly publicly discussed and one of the
electrical association advised the power companies to
increase the size of the neutral to solve many issues,
such as cows giving less milk and problems with electric
current in homes. The power companies even openly discuss
this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In <strong>remote rural areas</strong>
of Australia, I have seen electricity distribution using
SWER (Single-Wire Earth Return); just one wire is fed to the
property at a high voltage, with the current returning via
the ground. At the property, a transformer turns the high
voltage into normal residential voltages on a pair of wires
(230VAC in Australia vs 2x115V in some other countries). But
this SWER system is inefficient, and the supply voltage is
poorly regulated; it is a rare exception - it is only done
because of the high cost of delivering two wires in remote
areas.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In <strong>metropolitan areas</strong>,
you will typically see 4 wires passing down the street. This
consists of three phases of "Active", plus a "Neutral". You
could <em>imagine</em> the Active carrying current "from"
the power grid, and the Neutral carrying the current "back
to" the power grid (even though the current flow is
symmetrical).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">There is lots of info online if you wish
to learn more about this.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Take care<o:p></o:p>, Robert<o:p><br>
<br>
</o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
Allan Sindelar [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:allan@sindelarsolar.com">mailto:allan@sindelarsolar.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 23, 2016 10:18 PM<br>
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Robert,<br>
I'm neither an electrical engineer or a utility employee, so
I may be all wet here, and if so please dry me off with a
straight-up explanation. But this whole argument seems
specious to me, as it addresses a "grid neutral". <br>
<br>
My reasoning is this - there is no such animal as a "grid
neutral" in utility lines, so how is this issue even
relevant? The "hots" are bidirectional; only when the
utility power is stepped down at the transformer at the home
is a reference neutral created. To say that the current
"cannot all go <span style="font-size:11.0pt">back thru the
neutral since it is not large enough BY DESIGN" seems to
me an absurd concept since there is no neutral in utility
power distribution. <br>
<br>
Am I missing something?<br>
Allan<br>
</span><br>
On 10/2/2016 7:51 PM, Robert wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Allan
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Here
is the info I said I would send: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJOB2FIqUiQ"><u>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJOB2FIqUiQ</u></a></span><o:p></o:p>.
L<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">isten
about 20 minutes at least.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">All
current that goes “out” on the two residential or three
commercial hots goes back on the grid neutral </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">AND
thru the ground'. It cannot all go back thru the neutral
since it is not large enough BY DESIGN. So…. That means
we really don’t have a clean ground anymore.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thank
you for your time today. It is enjoyable to speak with
you.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"></span><o:p></o:p></blockquote>
</div>
</div>
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