[RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown
Ray Walters
ray at solarray.com
Tue Mar 15 21:04:27 PDT 2016
We were discussing remotely turning on and off the inverter itself like
with the Outback's remote on/ off terminals. Magnum only has their
remotes which aren't compatible with other systems.
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 3/15/2016 8:04 PM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote:
>
>
> On 3/15/2016 5:23 PM, Ray Walters wrote:
>> Hi Brad;
>>
>> I think that remotely tripping the inverter might work with Outback,
>> but definitely not with Magnum. (I checked with them today) Also, if
>> the battery cables are more than 5 ft long, the rapid disconnect
>> /might/ have to be closer to the batteries. (/690.12 ...shall apply
>> only to PV system conductors more than 5 ft in length inside the
>> building...)
>> /
> *
>
> Ray,
>
> There is no reason at all that any battery based inverter should not
> work with our RSS system.
>
> Did they give you a reason why the inverter can't be turned off by
> switching off its battery circuit breaker ?
>
> I almost always turn off a Magnum inverter (or other inverter) by
> switching off its battery breaker,
> at least when we're testing an E-panel system. Works every time
> except maybe if the grid
> is or generator is connected and running. In a shutdown condition,
> those two things would
> be dead and inactive.
>
> Also, Our 600V Cat5 cable is USE-2 rated, shielded and tougher than nails.
>
> Thanks and hallucinations,
> boB
> *
>
>> /
>> /As for inverter and overall system reliability? I'm afraid that//is
>> going 'Rapidly' down hill.// Decades//of experience says that the
>> more gizmos and automatic controls you add, the more chances you have
>> for something to go wrong. The Birdhouse system defaults to/'off'
>> /with any communications problems, so one CAT 5 cable has a nick in
>> it, and the entire system crashes.//With all this emphasis on safety,
>> we also need to be thinking about our customers living alone in cold,
>> remote locations./
>> /Perhaps an emergency disconnect for the emergency disconnect?
>> R.Ray Walters
>> CTO, Solarray, Inc
>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
>> Licensed Master Electrician
>> Solar Design Engineer
>> 303 505-8760
>> On 3/15/2016 5:45 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote:
>>> I've been promoting the use of the remote on/off terminals that are
>>> available in most inverters, which can be connected to the AUX in
>>> the Birdhouse. For a very minimum effort and cost, the inverter AC
>>> output would be shutdown when the rapid shutdown is activated. I
>>> think using the remote on/off terminals seems a lot cleaner way to
>>> do this than disconnecting the battery cables. And there is the
>>> possibility that disconnecting the battery from a fully loaded
>>> inverter may damage the inverter, do we really want to risk that
>>> whenever we test the RSD system? None of the current inverter mfg
>>> will say that this will do any damage, but they don't seem very
>>> convinced to me. I remember a decade ago when they did say there
>>> could be an issue. I'm not sure how much different inverters are now
>>> than then.
>>>
>>> Brad
>>> AEE Solar
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Patrick Shortell
>>> <pshortell6 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear List,
>>> Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion, but shouldnt all sources
>>> be disconnected rapidly in an emergency situation.
>>> We can always do better than what the code requires. I get
>>> frustrated when people go to the book, (and try to hide behind
>>> the text). instead of thinking through real life scenarios.
>>> There are simple ways to work around these issues.
>>> I find when something is questionable, Ill call the AHJ and get
>>> his approval First.
>>> What would I do in my own house?
>>> What if someone thought all the power was off when they dragged
>>> a hoseline into my basement.
>>> My two cents
>>> Pat
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:10 PM, <billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ray,
>>>
>>> I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement. PV
>>> system circuit is a
>>> self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined unless you
>>> are going to
>>> develop a meaning that is different from the
>>> self-definition. It means ANY
>>> circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and
>>> stand-alone circuits in
>>> the 2014 NEC.
>>>
>>> The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between the
>>> fire service and
>>> the PV industry. Originally, the language required
>>> essentially module-level
>>> shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to get
>>> them involved
>>> since most were not paying attention at the time. This
>>> language was
>>> developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV system.
>>> In the 2014
>>> NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore fall
>>> under this
>>> requirement.
>>>
>>> In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all
>>> batteries and loads,
>>> that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in
>>> their own
>>> articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and don't
>>> think for a minute
>>> that I alone made this requirement or am alone in
>>> interpreting it in this
>>> way. I did author this compromise with other representatives
>>> of the PV
>>> industry so I think I know what the intent was.
>>>
>>> It is understandably difficult for battery systems and I
>>> would try to keep
>>> battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was
>>> intended to match the
>>> requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of the
>>> intent of the
>>> 2014 NEC.
>>>
>>> The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement, but
>>> they still cannot
>>> backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article 706)
>>> will have their
>>> own requirements in time--that is guaranteed.
>>>
>>> Bill.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: RE-wrenches
>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Ray Walters
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM
>>> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown
>>>
>>> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches:
>>>
>>> I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado,
>>> and we are still
>>> being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No
>>> where in 690.12
>>> are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71
>>> section that deals
>>> with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based
>>> on a single
>>> article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have
>>> contacted both
>>> Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are
>>> unaware that rapid
>>> shutdown applies.
>>> My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and
>>> battery system
>>> that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any
>>> rapid shutdown
>>> at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single
>>> solar module into
>>> the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The
>>> problem lies with the
>>> term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV
>>> Output
>>> circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV
>>> system circuit'
>>> defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term.
>>> Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel
>>> with their
>>> remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5
>>> ft from the
>>> batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects
>>> (that would comply
>>> with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer
>>> remote trip.
>>> We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with
>>> the Birdhouse,
>>> so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to
>>> batteries
>>> though.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --
>>> R.Ray Walters
>>> CTO, Solarray, Inc
>>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
>>> Licensed Master Electrician
>>> Solar Design Engineer
>>> 303 505-8760 <tel:303%20505-8760>
>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Patrick A. Shortell
>>> /Licensed Master Electrician/
>>> /Certified Solar Installer/
>>> 71 Oregon Street
>>> Long Beach N.Y. 11561
>>> cell: 516-477-0221 <tel:516-477-0221>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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