[RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown
bob at midnitesolar.com
bob at midnitesolar.com
Tue Mar 15 19:04:08 PDT 2016
On 3/15/2016 5:23 PM, Ray Walters wrote:
> Hi Brad;
>
> I think that remotely tripping the inverter might work with Outback,
> but definitely not with Magnum. (I checked with them today) Also, if
> the battery cables are more than 5 ft long, the rapid disconnect
> /might/ have to be closer to the batteries. (/690.12 ...shall apply
> only to PV system conductors more than 5 ft in length inside the
> building...)
> /
*
Ray,
There is no reason at all that any battery based inverter should not
work with our RSS system.
Did they give you a reason why the inverter can't be turned off by
switching off its battery circuit breaker ?
I almost always turn off a Magnum inverter (or other inverter) by
switching off its battery breaker,
at least when we're testing an E-panel system. Works every time except
maybe if the grid
is or generator is connected and running. In a shutdown condition,
those two things would
be dead and inactive.
Also, Our 600V Cat5 cable is USE-2 rated, shielded and tougher than nails.
Thanks and hallucinations,
boB
*
> /
> /As for inverter and overall system reliability? I'm afraid that//is
> going 'Rapidly' down hill.// Decades//of experience says that the more
> gizmos and automatic controls you add, the more chances you have for
> something to go wrong. The Birdhouse system defaults to/'off' /with
> any communications problems, so one CAT 5 cable has a nick in it, and
> the entire system crashes.//With all this emphasis on safety, we also
> need to be thinking about our customers living alone in cold, remote
> locations./
> /Perhaps an emergency disconnect for the emergency disconnect?
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
> On 3/15/2016 5:45 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote:
>> I've been promoting the use of the remote on/off terminals that are
>> available in most inverters, which can be connected to the AUX in the
>> Birdhouse. For a very minimum effort and cost, the inverter AC output
>> would be shutdown when the rapid shutdown is activated. I think
>> using the remote on/off terminals seems a lot cleaner way to do this
>> than disconnecting the battery cables. And there is the possibility
>> that disconnecting the battery from a fully loaded inverter may
>> damage the inverter, do we really want to risk that whenever we test
>> the RSD system? None of the current inverter mfg will say that this
>> will do any damage, but they don't seem very convinced to me. I
>> remember a decade ago when they did say there could be an issue. I'm
>> not sure how much different inverters are now than then.
>>
>> Brad
>> AEE Solar
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Patrick Shortell
>> <pshortell6 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear List,
>> Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion, but shouldnt all sources
>> be disconnected rapidly in an emergency situation.
>> We can always do better than what the code requires. I get
>> frustrated when people go to the book, (and try to hide behind
>> the text). instead of thinking through real life scenarios.
>> There are simple ways to work around these issues.
>> I find when something is questionable, Ill call the AHJ and get
>> his approval First.
>> What would I do in my own house?
>> What if someone thought all the power was off when they dragged a
>> hoseline into my basement.
>> My two cents
>> Pat
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:10 PM, <billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net
>> <mailto:billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Ray,
>>
>> I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement. PV
>> system circuit is a
>> self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined unless you
>> are going to
>> develop a meaning that is different from the self-definition.
>> It means ANY
>> circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and stand-alone
>> circuits in
>> the 2014 NEC.
>>
>> The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between the
>> fire service and
>> the PV industry. Originally, the language required
>> essentially module-level
>> shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to get
>> them involved
>> since most were not paying attention at the time. This
>> language was
>> developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV system.
>> In the 2014
>> NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore fall
>> under this
>> requirement.
>>
>> In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all
>> batteries and loads,
>> that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in
>> their own
>> articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and don't
>> think for a minute
>> that I alone made this requirement or am alone in
>> interpreting it in this
>> way. I did author this compromise with other representatives
>> of the PV
>> industry so I think I know what the intent was.
>>
>> It is understandably difficult for battery systems and I
>> would try to keep
>> battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was
>> intended to match the
>> requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of the
>> intent of the
>> 2014 NEC.
>>
>> The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement, but they
>> still cannot
>> backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article 706)
>> will have their
>> own requirements in time--that is guaranteed.
>>
>> Bill.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: RE-wrenches
>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On
>> Behalf Of Ray Walters
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM
>> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>> <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>>
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown
>>
>> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches:
>>
>> I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, and
>> we are still
>> being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No
>> where in 690.12
>> are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71
>> section that deals
>> with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based on
>> a single
>> article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have
>> contacted both
>> Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are
>> unaware that rapid
>> shutdown applies.
>> My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and
>> battery system
>> that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any
>> rapid shutdown
>> at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single
>> solar module into
>> the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The
>> problem lies with the
>> term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV
>> Output
>> circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV system
>> circuit'
>> defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term.
>> Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel
>> with their
>> remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5
>> ft from the
>> batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects (that
>> would comply
>> with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer
>> remote trip.
>> We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with
>> the Birdhouse,
>> so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to
>> batteries
>> though.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --
>> R.Ray Walters
>> CTO, Solarray, Inc
>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
>> Licensed Master Electrician
>> Solar Design Engineer
>> 303 505-8760 <tel:303%20505-8760>
>>
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>>
>> --
>> Patrick A. Shortell
>> /Licensed Master Electrician/
>> /Certified Solar Installer/
>> 71 Oregon Street
>> Long Beach N.Y. 11561
>> cell: 516-477-0221 <tel:516-477-0221>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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