<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/15/2016 5:23 PM, Ray Walters
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56E8A773.3030101@solarray.com" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
Hi Brad;<br>
<br>
I think that remotely tripping the inverter might work with
Outback, but definitely not with Magnum. (I checked with them
today) Also, if the battery cables are more than 5 ft long, the
rapid disconnect <i>might</i> have to be closer to the
batteries. (<i>690.12 ...shall apply only to PV system conductors
more than 5 ft in length inside the building...)<br>
</i></blockquote>
<b><big><br>
<br>
Ray,<br>
<br>
There is no reason at all that any battery based inverter should
not work with our RSS system.<br>
<br>
Did they give you a reason why the inverter can't be turned off
by switching off its battery circuit breaker ?<br>
<br>
I almost always turn off a Magnum inverter (or other inverter)
by switching off its battery breaker, <br>
at least when we're testing an E-panel system. Works every time
except maybe if the grid<br>
is or generator is connected and running. In a shutdown
condition, those two things would<br>
be dead and inactive.<br>
<br>
Also, Our 600V Cat5 cable is USE-2 rated, shielded and tougher
than nails.<br>
<br>
Thanks and hallucinations,<br>
boB<br>
</big></b><br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56E8A773.3030101@solarray.com" type="cite"><i>
<br>
</i>As for inverter and overall system reliability? I'm afraid
that<i> </i>is going 'Rapidly' down hill.<i> </i> Decades<i> </i>of
experience says that the more gizmos and automatic controls you
add, the more chances you have for something to go wrong. The
Birdhouse system defaults to<i> 'off' </i>with any communications
problems, so one CAT 5 cable has a nick in it, and the entire
system crashes.<i> </i>With all this emphasis on safety, we also
need to be thinking about our customers living alone in cold,
remote locations.<i><br>
</i>Perhaps an emergency disconnect for the emergency disconnect?<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/15/2016 5:45 PM, Bradley Bassett
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAEpjgH1LgYdamzY4oWeqSsuc7Q1sddF035nD_60O1=G4sFs4Og@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>I've been promoting the use of the remote on/off
terminals that are available in most inverters, which can
be connected to the AUX in the Birdhouse. For a very
minimum effort and cost, the inverter AC output would be
shutdown when the rapid shutdown is activated. I think
using the remote on/off terminals seems a lot cleaner way
to do this than disconnecting the battery cables. And
there is the possibility that disconnecting the battery
from a fully loaded inverter may damage the inverter, do
we really want to risk that whenever we test the RSD
system? None of the current inverter mfg will say that
this will do any damage, but they don't seem very
convinced to me. I remember a decade ago when they did say
there could be an issue. I'm not sure how much different
inverters are now than then.<br>
<br>
</div>
Brad<br>
</div>
AEE Solar<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:48 PM,
Patrick Shortell <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:pshortell6@gmail.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pshortell6@gmail.com">pshortell6@gmail.com</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Dear List,<br>
</div>
Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion, but
shouldnt all sources be disconnected
rapidly in an emergency situation.<br>
</div>
We can always do better than what the code
requires. I get frustrated when people go to
the book, (and try to hide behind the
text). instead of thinking through real
life scenarios.<br>
</div>
There are simple ways to work around these
issues.<br>
</div>
I find when something is questionable, Ill call
the AHJ and get his approval First.<br>
</div>
What would I do in my own house?<br>
</div>
What if someone thought all the power was off when
they dragged a hoseline into my basement.<br>
</div>
My two cents<br>
</div>
Pat<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at
1:10 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:billbrooks7@sbcglobal.net"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:billbrooks7@sbcglobal.net">billbrooks7@sbcglobal.net</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">Ray,<br>
<br>
I guess I have to step in after that
acknowledgement. PV system circuit is a<br>
self-defined term and therefore cannot be
defined unless you are going to<br>
develop a meaning that is different from the
self-definition. It means ANY<br>
circuit in a PV system. This includes battery
and stand-alone circuits in<br>
the 2014 NEC.<br>
<br>
The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise
between the fire service and<br>
the PV industry. Originally, the language
required essentially module-level<br>
shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV
industry to get them involved<br>
since most were not paying attention at the
time. This language was<br>
developed and intended to cover all circuits in
a PV system. In the 2014<br>
NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and
therefore fall under this<br>
requirement.<br>
<br>
In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve
out all batteries and loads,<br>
that were previously part of PV systems, and
place them in their own<br>
articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one
and don't think for a minute<br>
that I alone made this requirement or am alone
in interpreting it in this<br>
way. I did author this compromise with other
representatives of the PV<br>
industry so I think I know what the intent was.<br>
<br>
It is understandably difficult for battery
systems and I would try to keep<br>
battery circuits as short as possible. The
5-feet was intended to match the<br>
requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further
evidence of the intent of the<br>
2014 NEC.<br>
<br>
The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the
requirement, but they still cannot<br>
backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems
(Article 706) will have their<br>
own requirements in time--that is guaranteed.<br>
<br>
Bill.<br>
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></a>]
On<br>
Behalf Of Ray Walters<br>
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM<br>
To: RE-wrenches <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></a>><br>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown<br>
<br>
Greetings Esteemed Wrenches:<br>
<br>
I've just heard back from our inspector here
in Colorado, and we are still<br>
being required to disconnect the batteries
under 690.12. No where in 690.12<br>
are batteries mentioned, nor in the
appropriate 690.71 section that deals<br>
with batteries. The entire reasoning behind
this is based on a single<br>
article written by a single person: Bill
Brooks. I have contacted both<br>
Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their
engineers are unaware that rapid<br>
shutdown applies.<br>
My interpretation is that I could install an
inverter and battery system<br>
that was charged from a generator, and we
would not need any rapid shutdown<br>
at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I
put a single solar module into<br>
the system, suddenly the entire system
becomes PV? The problem lies with the<br>
term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12.
690.2 Defines 'PV Output<br>
circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there
is no 'PV system circuit'<br>
defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined
term.<br>
Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used
Midnite's E panel with their<br>
remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would
be more than 5 ft from the<br>
batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC
disconnects (that would comply<br>
with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they
don't offer remote trip.<br>
We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner
on the roof with the Birdhouse,<br>
so we are complying with 690.12, it should
not be applied to batteries<br>
though.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
--<br>
R.Ray Walters<br>
CTO, Solarray, Inc<br>
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,<br>
Licensed Master Electrician<br>
Solar Design Engineer<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:303%20505-8760"
value="+13035058760" target="_blank">303
505-8760</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br>
<br>
List Address: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
Change listserver email address &
settings:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List-Archive:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a><br>
<br>
List rules & etiquette:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>
<br>
Check out or update participant bios:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br>
<br>
List Address: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
Change listserver email address &
settings:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List-Archive: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a><br>
<br>
List rules & etiquette:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>
<br>
Check out or update participant bios:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
</div>
</div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">-- <br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Patrick A. Shortell
<div><i>Licensed Master Electrician</i></div>
<div><i>Certified Solar Installer</i></div>
<div>71 Oregon Street</div>
<div>Long Beach N.Y. 11561</div>
<div>cell: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:516-477-0221"
value="+15164770221" target="_blank">516-477-0221</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</font></span></div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br>
<br>
List Address: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
Change listserver email address & settings:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List-Archive: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a><br>
<br>
List rules & etiquette:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>
<br>
Check out or update participant bios:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
Change listserver email address & settings:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
List-Archive: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a>
List rules & etiquette:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a>
Check out or update participant bios:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
Change listserver email address & settings:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
List-Archive: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a>
List rules & etiquette:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a>
Check out or update participant bios:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>