[RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
Jerry Shafer
jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com
Wed Mar 18 13:18:20 PDT 2015
Phil
Please confirm i have built lots of ps2 and 4 seams to always have 25's on
the x240 not 20's
Jerry
On Mar 18, 2015 10:04 AM, "Phil Undercuffler" <solarphil at gmail.com> wrote:
> The PSX-240 (independent unit in enclosure) has active cooling, so it has
> a higher capacity and therefore the 25A breaker. The X-240 (bare xformer)
> should have a 20A. The good news is, in OutBack Stacking the xformer is
> balancing the phases, which since there are inverters on both phases means
> that it typically is only processing 1-2kW or so, usually much less.
>
> Phil
>
> On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Allan Sindelar <allan at sindelarsolar.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Kevin and Matt,
>> Good advice from Matt. Just one detail: On the Outback PSX-240 (the
>> independent unit with enclosure) the output breakers are 25A, not 20A. I
>> suspect that the 2P
>> breaker for the X-240 would be the same. As the unit often operates at
>> close to its capacity, this could make a difference.
>> Allan
>>
>> *Allan Sindelar*
>> allan at sindelarsolar.com
>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
>> *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell*
>>
>>
>> On 3/17/2015 2:56 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, Matt for the details here.
>>
>> I will be heading out to the site in the next little while and will
>> report back what was found.
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>> <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>]*On Behalf Of *Matt James
>> *Sent:* March 17, 2015 12:22 PM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
>>
>> Kevin,
>>
>>
>>
>> Not sure what happened on the dropped communication, but I had responded
>> to you last week with some possible answers and things to check. I think I
>> made the mistake of replying directly to your email address and not sending
>> to the entire Re-Wrenches forum, sorry for that as I know this is
>> information that could be helpful to others as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> In any case, Tump is right -- on an existing system where everything has
>> been working fine for some time but now isn’t, the key is to isolate,
>> isolate, isolate. Turn off all AC input, output and transformer breakers,
>> then wake up each inverter by increasing the Power Save Level Master Adjust
>> one step at a time. Confirm proper AC voltage line to neutral at the
>> inverter’s AC output terminals – all breakers are still open.
>>
>>
>>
>> Close the breaker to the X240 balancing transformer, then close the AC
>> output breakers of one inverter at a time, starting with the Master.
>> Confirm that all inverters are on and have proper voltage and phasing by
>> verifying proper AC voltage line to neutral, line to line as measured at
>> the AC output terminals and to the output bus bars – all inverters should
>> show 120 L-N, and any inverters programmed as L1 Slaves should show 0v L-L
>> to the Master and 240v L-L to L2 Slaves. L2 slaves
>>
>>
>>
>> This establishes a baseline to ensure that all the power electronics,
>> magnetics, wiring and programming are working properly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Next, start the generator and close all the input breakers. Measure AC
>> voltage at the inverter’s input terminals, confirm that each is seeing the
>> proper voltage and phasing. Verify that the inverters sync to and connect
>> to the generator, and begin to charge. Measure the AC current on both
>> phases of the generator, and verify that they are balanced.
>>
>>
>>
>> Some potential issues are:
>>
>> 1. Bad X240 breaker. Take a spare, 20A 2 pole DIN.
>>
>> 2. Transformer insulation damaged, typically by overheating.
>> Rather unlikely, but possible.
>>
>> 3. Failed or mis-wired or mis-programmed inverter, likely on L2.
>> Due to the distance to the site, consider taking a replacement board set
>> with you. Alternately, the system can operate on both legs with the other
>> inverters, even if it’s an uneven number, through OutBack Stacking until
>> you can schedule another trip.
>>
>> 4. Heavily imbalanced load or generator.
>>
>>
>>
>> If the charging currents on the generator are imbalanced, one possible
>> solution is to disconnect the neutral from the generator at the power
>> system end. This presents a pure 240v load to the genset, which will force
>> the currents to be balanced on both phases.
>>
>>
>>
>> Feel free to contact me directly if you have any problems or questions.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Matt James
>>
>> Applications Engineering Manager
>>
>> OutBack Power Technologies Inc.
>>
>> Direct: (360) 618-4364
>>
>> Cell: (360) 618-2869
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>> <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of *Kevin Pegg
>> *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2015 10:51 AM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for everyone's advise on this one. I've done as much as I can
>> working with the caretaker remotely and will need to attend myself with
>> some test gear to fully diagnose. This site is remote (10h of driving then
>> 1h boat ride). I generally make a point of avoiding Outback product so feel
>> much better informed to diagnose when onsite - later in the week. Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> Curious what is going on with Outback's tech support. I waited on hold
>> for a bit on Wednesday, then left a message for callback and am still
>> waiting for that callback 3 business days later.
>>
>>
>>
>> My client is most upset that Outback can't even bother to return a tech
>> call. His instructions to me are if we find multiple failed components in
>> the system and not simple fixes to remove the gear and replace with
>> "anything as long as it's not Outback".
>>
>>
>>
>> Will advise the list what was discovered once onsite.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>> <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>]*On Behalf Of *frenergy
>> *Sent:* March 16, 2015 6:38 AM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
>>
>> Kevin,
>>
>>
>>
>> Not to add any confusion but I recently had to re-program the
>> slave in a 2 VFX with Xfrmr system as it was doing the same thing...the 2
>> pole xfrmr breaker was tripping when a moderate load was on. Granted this
>> was not happening during charging though. I think I changed the slave from
>> OB slave L1 to OB slave L2 and all was good. It doesn't seem likely the
>> programming in your case would have been messed with having been working
>> well for years prior. Curious to hear though of a solution eventually.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>> Feather River Solar Electric
>> 4291 Nelson St.
>> Taylorsville, CA 95983
>> 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> *From:* Tump <tump at swnl.net>
>>
>> *To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>
>> *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2015 5:39 AM
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
>>
>>
>>
>> Have you turned the breaker on the t240 to the off position? One does NOT
>> have to have that operational for the system to operate correctly.The old
>> t240 has about the same parasitic draw as an inverter. Isolate, Isolate,
>> Isolate. If the system functions correctly w/ the t240 off and the stacking
>> is correct on this q stack disconnect it(the t240). Otherwise I would
>> remove the inverter com cables and only connect 1 pair of inverters at a
>> time, reset the mate with the correct com cables connected to P1& P2.
>> Sometimes something so simple as disconnecting & reconnection the mate can
>> have quite a benefit. Again I would, if you are really stuck on having the
>> t240 operational, then try it with each inverter as a single unit then try
>> the second set of inverters. Disconnect the #s1&2 inverters and do the
>> same; connect #s 3&4 P1 & P2, to see exactly which component may be your
>> problem.
>>
>> You are more then happy to contact me off list if you choose. contact
>> info below. Tump
>>
>> On Mar 15, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Wrenches
>> OK if the X240 blows the fuse which is on the output of the inverter
>> while the inverter is charging, excessive current must be passing through
>> from one inverter and back to the output of another inverter ( a form of AC
>> coupling gone bad). The time delay fits as the inverter ramps up, I would
>> look at the contactors in each slave as one may be hanging or ther may be a
>> bad board, easy way to test is to isolate each inverter and with a amp
>> meter connected at the X240 see if current goes away in the X240 as it
>> should not be doing much with light loads on the "House" side of the
>> inverters. The X240 is 25 amps while the inverters are 50 amps. Sounds like
>> a interesting one to diagnose.
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Chris Worcester <
>> chris at solarwindworks.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Kevin,
>>
>> I have seen the X240's trip off like this when theyare over loaded.
>> When this was happening to us the slave inverters had blown AC boards and
>> some times Control and FET boards too. We had a hard time diagnosing this
>> as their green lights were on. Using a clamp on amp meter on each
>> inverter's AC IN conductor while charging with the gen set allowed us to
>> compare their charging currents to each other. Typically the ones with
>> blown AC boards output would be close to zero amps. So the X240's were
>> doing double duty and they will smoke too if the inverters aren't delta
>> with.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Chris Worcester
>>
>> 530-448-9692
>>
>> Sent from my Galaxy S®III
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>>
>> From: Kevin Pegg
>>
>> Date:03/11/2015 1:19 PM (GMT-08:00)
>>
>> To: RE-wrenches
>>
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello Wrenches,
>>
>> Customer in remote location has a strange situation come up on an
>> existing system installed (by others) 6 or so years go. Quad stack VFX3648.
>>
>> Last night gen start was triggered by low voltage - a normal system
>> operation.
>>
>> Approx 1h into charge, they lost 1/2 the circuits in house - L2
>> de-energized. Caretaker went to check power system and noticed the X240
>> breakers tripped. Tried to reset but it tripped out right away. So he left
>> it as is and called me in the morning.
>>
>> Here's what I've been able to determine today:
>>
>> - The x240 is installed to bridge L1 & L2 on the load side.
>> - with master inverter on, 3 slaves off, both L1 and L2 energized so
>> suggests x240 is working.
>> - within 10 seconds of generator on and charging, x240 breaker trips (and
>> makes L2 go dark).
>> - loads are minor, ~1,000 w of misc lights and such, isn't all loaded up
>> on one leg.
>>
>> Appreciate any thoughts to remedy. I'm not as familiar with this config
>> as others.
>>
>> Kevin Pegg
>> EA Energy Alternatives Ltd.
>> 37471 Hwy 16 E
>> Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2
>> 250-846-9888
>> Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca <http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca/>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net*
>>
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