[RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
Phil Undercuffler
solarphil at gmail.com
Wed Mar 18 16:46:18 PDT 2015
There was a certification update the last year or so where UL standards on
transformers changed. If you have an X240 that came with a 25, then it was
from the old math. The X240s that ship under the new math have 20A
breakers. Like you, I've installed tons of X240s with 25A breakers, but
either one works.
Phil
On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Jerry Shafer <jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Phil
> Please confirm i have built lots of ps2 and 4 seams to always have 25's on
> the x240 not 20's
> Jerry
> On Mar 18, 2015 10:04 AM, "Phil Undercuffler" <solarphil at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The PSX-240 (independent unit in enclosure) has active cooling, so it has
>> a higher capacity and therefore the 25A breaker. The X-240 (bare xformer)
>> should have a 20A. The good news is, in OutBack Stacking the xformer is
>> balancing the phases, which since there are inverters on both phases means
>> that it typically is only processing 1-2kW or so, usually much less.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Allan Sindelar <allan at sindelarsolar.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Kevin and Matt,
>>> Good advice from Matt. Just one detail: On the Outback PSX-240 (the
>>> independent unit with enclosure) the output breakers are 25A, not 20A. I
>>> suspect that the 2P
>>> breaker for the X-240 would be the same. As the unit often operates at
>>> close to its capacity, this could make a difference.
>>> Allan
>>>
>>> *Allan Sindelar*
>>> allan at sindelarsolar.com
>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>>> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
>>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
>>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
>>> *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell*
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/17/2015 2:56 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks, Matt for the details here.
>>>
>>> I will be heading out to the site in the next little while and will
>>> report back what was found.
>>>
>>> Kevin
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>> <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>]*On Behalf Of *Matt James
>>> *Sent:* March 17, 2015 12:22 PM
>>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
>>>
>>> Kevin,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Not sure what happened on the dropped communication, but I had responded
>>> to you last week with some possible answers and things to check. I think I
>>> made the mistake of replying directly to your email address and not sending
>>> to the entire Re-Wrenches forum, sorry for that as I know this is
>>> information that could be helpful to others as well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In any case, Tump is right -- on an existing system where everything has
>>> been working fine for some time but now isn’t, the key is to isolate,
>>> isolate, isolate. Turn off all AC input, output and transformer breakers,
>>> then wake up each inverter by increasing the Power Save Level Master Adjust
>>> one step at a time. Confirm proper AC voltage line to neutral at the
>>> inverter’s AC output terminals – all breakers are still open.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Close the breaker to the X240 balancing transformer, then close the AC
>>> output breakers of one inverter at a time, starting with the Master.
>>> Confirm that all inverters are on and have proper voltage and phasing by
>>> verifying proper AC voltage line to neutral, line to line as measured at
>>> the AC output terminals and to the output bus bars – all inverters should
>>> show 120 L-N, and any inverters programmed as L1 Slaves should show 0v L-L
>>> to the Master and 240v L-L to L2 Slaves. L2 slaves
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This establishes a baseline to ensure that all the power electronics,
>>> magnetics, wiring and programming are working properly.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Next, start the generator and close all the input breakers. Measure AC
>>> voltage at the inverter’s input terminals, confirm that each is seeing the
>>> proper voltage and phasing. Verify that the inverters sync to and connect
>>> to the generator, and begin to charge. Measure the AC current on both
>>> phases of the generator, and verify that they are balanced.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Some potential issues are:
>>>
>>> 1. Bad X240 breaker. Take a spare, 20A 2 pole DIN.
>>>
>>> 2. Transformer insulation damaged, typically by overheating.
>>> Rather unlikely, but possible.
>>>
>>> 3. Failed or mis-wired or mis-programmed inverter, likely on L2.
>>> Due to the distance to the site, consider taking a replacement board set
>>> with you. Alternately, the system can operate on both legs with the other
>>> inverters, even if it’s an uneven number, through OutBack Stacking until
>>> you can schedule another trip.
>>>
>>> 4. Heavily imbalanced load or generator.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If the charging currents on the generator are imbalanced, one possible
>>> solution is to disconnect the neutral from the generator at the power
>>> system end. This presents a pure 240v load to the genset, which will force
>>> the currents to be balanced on both phases.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Feel free to contact me directly if you have any problems or questions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Matt James
>>>
>>> Applications Engineering Manager
>>>
>>> OutBack Power Technologies Inc.
>>>
>>> Direct: (360) 618-4364
>>>
>>> Cell: (360) 618-2869
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>> <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of *Kevin Pegg
>>> *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2015 10:51 AM
>>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for everyone's advise on this one. I've done as much as I can
>>> working with the caretaker remotely and will need to attend myself with
>>> some test gear to fully diagnose. This site is remote (10h of driving then
>>> 1h boat ride). I generally make a point of avoiding Outback product so feel
>>> much better informed to diagnose when onsite - later in the week. Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Curious what is going on with Outback's tech support. I waited on hold
>>> for a bit on Wednesday, then left a message for callback and am still
>>> waiting for that callback 3 business days later.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My client is most upset that Outback can't even bother to return a tech
>>> call. His instructions to me are if we find multiple failed components in
>>> the system and not simple fixes to remove the gear and replace with
>>> "anything as long as it's not Outback".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Will advise the list what was discovered once onsite.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kevin
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>> <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>]*On Behalf Of *frenergy
>>> *Sent:* March 16, 2015 6:38 AM
>>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
>>>
>>> Kevin,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Not to add any confusion but I recently had to re-program the
>>> slave in a 2 VFX with Xfrmr system as it was doing the same thing...the 2
>>> pole xfrmr breaker was tripping when a moderate load was on. Granted this
>>> was not happening during charging though. I think I changed the slave from
>>> OB slave L1 to OB slave L2 and all was good. It doesn't seem likely the
>>> programming in your case would have been messed with having been working
>>> well for years prior. Curious to hear though of a solution eventually.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Feather River Solar Electric
>>> 4291 Nelson St.
>>> Taylorsville, CA 95983
>>> 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> *From:* Tump <tump at swnl.net>
>>>
>>> *To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2015 5:39 AM
>>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Have you turned the breaker on the t240 to the off position? One does
>>> NOT have to have that operational for the system to operate correctly.The
>>> old t240 has about the same parasitic draw as an inverter. Isolate,
>>> Isolate, Isolate. If the system functions correctly w/ the t240 off and the
>>> stacking is correct on this q stack disconnect it(the t240). Otherwise I
>>> would remove the inverter com cables and only connect 1 pair of inverters
>>> at a time, reset the mate with the correct com cables connected to P1& P2.
>>> Sometimes something so simple as disconnecting & reconnection the mate can
>>> have quite a benefit. Again I would, if you are really stuck on having the
>>> t240 operational, then try it with each inverter as a single unit then try
>>> the second set of inverters. Disconnect the #s1&2 inverters and do the
>>> same; connect #s 3&4 P1 & P2, to see exactly which component may be your
>>> problem.
>>>
>>> You are more then happy to contact me off list if you choose. contact
>>> info below. Tump
>>>
>>> On Mar 15, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Wrenches
>>> OK if the X240 blows the fuse which is on the output of the inverter
>>> while the inverter is charging, excessive current must be passing through
>>> from one inverter and back to the output of another inverter ( a form of AC
>>> coupling gone bad). The time delay fits as the inverter ramps up, I would
>>> look at the contactors in each slave as one may be hanging or ther may be a
>>> bad board, easy way to test is to isolate each inverter and with a amp
>>> meter connected at the X240 see if current goes away in the X240 as it
>>> should not be doing much with light loads on the "House" side of the
>>> inverters. The X240 is 25 amps while the inverters are 50 amps. Sounds like
>>> a interesting one to diagnose.
>>>
>>> Jerry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Chris Worcester <
>>> chris at solarwindworks.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Kevin,
>>>
>>> I have seen the X240's trip off like this when theyare over loaded.
>>> When this was happening to us the slave inverters had blown AC boards and
>>> some times Control and FET boards too. We had a hard time diagnosing this
>>> as their green lights were on. Using a clamp on amp meter on each
>>> inverter's AC IN conductor while charging with the gen set allowed us to
>>> compare their charging currents to each other. Typically the ones with
>>> blown AC boards output would be close to zero amps. So the X240's were
>>> doing double duty and they will smoke too if the inverters aren't delta
>>> with.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Chris Worcester
>>>
>>> 530-448-9692
>>>
>>> Sent from my Galaxy S®III
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>
>>> From: Kevin Pegg
>>>
>>> Date:03/11/2015 1:19 PM (GMT-08:00)
>>>
>>> To: RE-wrenches
>>>
>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello Wrenches,
>>>
>>> Customer in remote location has a strange situation come up on an
>>> existing system installed (by others) 6 or so years go. Quad stack VFX3648.
>>>
>>> Last night gen start was triggered by low voltage - a normal system
>>> operation.
>>>
>>> Approx 1h into charge, they lost 1/2 the circuits in house - L2
>>> de-energized. Caretaker went to check power system and noticed the X240
>>> breakers tripped. Tried to reset but it tripped out right away. So he left
>>> it as is and called me in the morning.
>>>
>>> Here's what I've been able to determine today:
>>>
>>> - The x240 is installed to bridge L1 & L2 on the load side.
>>> - with master inverter on, 3 slaves off, both L1 and L2 energized so
>>> suggests x240 is working.
>>> - within 10 seconds of generator on and charging, x240 breaker trips
>>> (and makes L2 go dark).
>>> - loads are minor, ~1,000 w of misc lights and such, isn't all loaded up
>>> on one leg.
>>>
>>> Appreciate any thoughts to remedy. I'm not as familiar with this config
>>> as others.
>>>
>>> Kevin Pegg
>>> EA Energy Alternatives Ltd.
>>> 37471 Hwy 16 E
>>> Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2
>>> 250-846-9888
>>> Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca <http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> List-Archive:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>>>
>>> List rules & etiquette:
>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>
>>> Check out or update participant bios:
>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> List-Archive:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>>>
>>> List rules & etiquette:
>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>
>>> Check out or update participant bios:
>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> List-Archive:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>>>
>>> List rules & etiquette:
>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>
>>> Check out or update participant bios:
>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net*
>>>
>>> Solarwinds Northernlights
>>>
>>> * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California*
>>> * 207-832-7574 <207-832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401
>>> <610-517-8401> *
>>>
>>> *Blair "TUMP" May*
>>>
>>>
>>> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** **
>>> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"*
>>>
>>>
>>> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** **
>>> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> List-Archive:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>>>
>>> List rules & etiquette:
>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>
>>> Check out or update participant bios:
>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>>>
>>> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>
>>> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> List-Archive:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>>>
>>> List rules & etiquette:
>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>
>>> Check out or update participant bios:
>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List-Archive:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20150318/913fe625/attachment-0002.html>
More information about the RE-wrenches
mailing list