[RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
Phil Undercuffler
solarphil at gmail.com
Wed Mar 18 13:04:20 PDT 2015
The PSX-240 (independent unit in enclosure) has active cooling, so it has a
higher capacity and therefore the 25A breaker. The X-240 (bare xformer)
should have a 20A. The good news is, in OutBack Stacking the xformer is
balancing the phases, which since there are inverters on both phases means
that it typically is only processing 1-2kW or so, usually much less.
Phil
On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Allan Sindelar <allan at sindelarsolar.com>
wrote:
> Kevin and Matt,
> Good advice from Matt. Just one detail: On the Outback PSX-240 (the
> independent unit with enclosure) the output breakers are 25A, not 20A. I
> suspect that the 2P
> breaker for the X-240 would be the same. As the unit often operates at
> close to its capacity, this could make a difference.
> Allan
>
> *Allan Sindelar*
> allan at sindelarsolar.com
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell*
>
>
> On 3/17/2015 2:56 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote:
>
> Thanks, Matt for the details here.
>
> I will be heading out to the site in the next little while and will report
> back what was found.
>
> Kevin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>]*On Behalf Of *Matt James
> *Sent:* March 17, 2015 12:22 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
>
> Kevin,
>
>
>
> Not sure what happened on the dropped communication, but I had responded
> to you last week with some possible answers and things to check. I think I
> made the mistake of replying directly to your email address and not sending
> to the entire Re-Wrenches forum, sorry for that as I know this is
> information that could be helpful to others as well.
>
>
>
> In any case, Tump is right -- on an existing system where everything has
> been working fine for some time but now isn’t, the key is to isolate,
> isolate, isolate. Turn off all AC input, output and transformer breakers,
> then wake up each inverter by increasing the Power Save Level Master Adjust
> one step at a time. Confirm proper AC voltage line to neutral at the
> inverter’s AC output terminals – all breakers are still open.
>
>
>
> Close the breaker to the X240 balancing transformer, then close the AC
> output breakers of one inverter at a time, starting with the Master.
> Confirm that all inverters are on and have proper voltage and phasing by
> verifying proper AC voltage line to neutral, line to line as measured at
> the AC output terminals and to the output bus bars – all inverters should
> show 120 L-N, and any inverters programmed as L1 Slaves should show 0v L-L
> to the Master and 240v L-L to L2 Slaves. L2 slaves
>
>
>
> This establishes a baseline to ensure that all the power electronics,
> magnetics, wiring and programming are working properly.
>
>
>
> Next, start the generator and close all the input breakers. Measure AC
> voltage at the inverter’s input terminals, confirm that each is seeing the
> proper voltage and phasing. Verify that the inverters sync to and connect
> to the generator, and begin to charge. Measure the AC current on both
> phases of the generator, and verify that they are balanced.
>
>
>
> Some potential issues are:
>
> 1. Bad X240 breaker. Take a spare, 20A 2 pole DIN.
>
> 2. Transformer insulation damaged, typically by overheating.
> Rather unlikely, but possible.
>
> 3. Failed or mis-wired or mis-programmed inverter, likely on L2.
> Due to the distance to the site, consider taking a replacement board set
> with you. Alternately, the system can operate on both legs with the other
> inverters, even if it’s an uneven number, through OutBack Stacking until
> you can schedule another trip.
>
> 4. Heavily imbalanced load or generator.
>
>
>
> If the charging currents on the generator are imbalanced, one possible
> solution is to disconnect the neutral from the generator at the power
> system end. This presents a pure 240v load to the genset, which will force
> the currents to be balanced on both phases.
>
>
>
> Feel free to contact me directly if you have any problems or questions.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
>
> Matt James
>
> Applications Engineering Manager
>
> OutBack Power Technologies Inc.
>
> Direct: (360) 618-4364
>
> Cell: (360) 618-2869
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of *Kevin Pegg
> *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2015 10:51 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
>
>
>
> Thanks for everyone's advise on this one. I've done as much as I can
> working with the caretaker remotely and will need to attend myself with
> some test gear to fully diagnose. This site is remote (10h of driving then
> 1h boat ride). I generally make a point of avoiding Outback product so feel
> much better informed to diagnose when onsite - later in the week. Thanks.
>
>
>
> Curious what is going on with Outback's tech support. I waited on hold for
> a bit on Wednesday, then left a message for callback and am still waiting
> for that callback 3 business days later.
>
>
>
> My client is most upset that Outback can't even bother to return a tech
> call. His instructions to me are if we find multiple failed components in
> the system and not simple fixes to remove the gear and replace with
> "anything as long as it's not Outback".
>
>
>
> Will advise the list what was discovered once onsite.
>
>
>
> Kevin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>]*On Behalf Of *frenergy
> *Sent:* March 16, 2015 6:38 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
>
> Kevin,
>
>
>
> Not to add any confusion but I recently had to re-program the
> slave in a 2 VFX with Xfrmr system as it was doing the same thing...the 2
> pole xfrmr breaker was tripping when a moderate load was on. Granted this
> was not happening during charging though. I think I changed the slave from
> OB slave L1 to OB slave L2 and all was good. It doesn't seem likely the
> programming in your case would have been messed with having been working
> well for years prior. Curious to hear though of a solution eventually.
>
>
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> Feather River Solar Electric
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Tump <tump at swnl.net>
>
> *To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>
> *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2015 5:39 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
>
>
>
> Have you turned the breaker on the t240 to the off position? One does NOT
> have to have that operational for the system to operate correctly.The old
> t240 has about the same parasitic draw as an inverter. Isolate, Isolate,
> Isolate. If the system functions correctly w/ the t240 off and the stacking
> is correct on this q stack disconnect it(the t240). Otherwise I would
> remove the inverter com cables and only connect 1 pair of inverters at a
> time, reset the mate with the correct com cables connected to P1& P2.
> Sometimes something so simple as disconnecting & reconnection the mate can
> have quite a benefit. Again I would, if you are really stuck on having the
> t240 operational, then try it with each inverter as a single unit then try
> the second set of inverters. Disconnect the #s1&2 inverters and do the
> same; connect #s 3&4 P1 & P2, to see exactly which component may be your
> problem.
>
> You are more then happy to contact me off list if you choose. contact info
> below. Tump
>
> On Mar 15, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
>
>
>
> Wrenches
> OK if the X240 blows the fuse which is on the output of the inverter while
> the inverter is charging, excessive current must be passing through from
> one inverter and back to the output of another inverter ( a form of AC
> coupling gone bad). The time delay fits as the inverter ramps up, I would
> look at the contactors in each slave as one may be hanging or ther may be a
> bad board, easy way to test is to isolate each inverter and with a amp
> meter connected at the X240 see if current goes away in the X240 as it
> should not be doing much with light loads on the "House" side of the
> inverters. The X240 is 25 amps while the inverters are 50 amps. Sounds like
> a interesting one to diagnose.
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Chris Worcester <
> chris at solarwindworks.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Kevin,
>
> I have seen the X240's trip off like this when theyare over loaded. When
> this was happening to us the slave inverters had blown AC boards and some
> times Control and FET boards too. We had a hard time diagnosing this as
> their green lights were on. Using a clamp on amp meter on each
> inverter's AC IN conductor while charging with the gen set allowed us to
> compare their charging currents to each other. Typically the ones with
> blown AC boards output would be close to zero amps. So the X240's were
> doing double duty and they will smoke too if the inverters aren't delta
> with.
>
>
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Chris Worcester
>
> 530-448-9692
>
> Sent from my Galaxy S®III
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
>
> From: Kevin Pegg
>
> Date:03/11/2015 1:19 PM (GMT-08:00)
>
> To: RE-wrenches
>
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
>
>
>
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> Customer in remote location has a strange situation come up on an existing
> system installed (by others) 6 or so years go. Quad stack VFX3648.
>
> Last night gen start was triggered by low voltage - a normal system
> operation.
>
> Approx 1h into charge, they lost 1/2 the circuits in house - L2
> de-energized. Caretaker went to check power system and noticed the X240
> breakers tripped. Tried to reset but it tripped out right away. So he left
> it as is and called me in the morning.
>
> Here's what I've been able to determine today:
>
> - The x240 is installed to bridge L1 & L2 on the load side.
> - with master inverter on, 3 slaves off, both L1 and L2 energized so
> suggests x240 is working.
> - within 10 seconds of generator on and charging, x240 breaker trips (and
> makes L2 go dark).
> - loads are minor, ~1,000 w of misc lights and such, isn't all loaded up
> on one leg.
>
> Appreciate any thoughts to remedy. I'm not as familiar with this config as
> others.
>
> Kevin Pegg
> EA Energy Alternatives Ltd.
> 37471 Hwy 16 E
> Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2
> 250-846-9888
> Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca <http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca/>
>
>
>
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> *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net*
>
> Solarwinds Northernlights
>
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