[RE-wrenches] Defective modules-American crap?
Ray Walters
ray at solarray.com
Wed May 29 10:25:13 PDT 2013
Our only protection at this point is the Wrenches list. If anybody on
the list is seeing premature failures, we need to know. You folks have
saved my tushy many times in the past. For now, I've stuck mostly with
Solar World, and not had problems. I will not be afraid to call any
module manu out if I have to, to help save this industry. If the
failure rate is high enough, and energy production effected enough, I
could see Congress even pulling the 30% tax credit.
Tying warranties to nondisclosure agreements is bordering on unethical.
I always knew something was fishy with modules selling for under $1/ watt
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 5/29/2013 11:05 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote:
>
> I find that at least out here in Hawaii, a substantial portion of the
> PV buying market really doesn't care what goes on their roof or who
> puts it up; they just want it now (before the grid gets too saturated
> and unable to accommodate much more PV) and they want it cheap. Being
> in this business for 35 years, I've concluded that warranties are
> mostly smoke and mirrors as far as 10 year or longer coverages,
> whether coming from manufacturers or integrators. How many of you
> bother to put anything away to cover future warranty liabilities?
> Doesn't happen in our business, whether a modco, inverter manufacturer
> or integrator. On the flip side, the fact that the costs of going PV
> have gone down so much means that even if mods and inverters have to
> be replaced at some point in the future, it shouldn't cost an arm and
> a leg.
>
> My theory is that those manufacturers who are mostly or wholly owned
> subsidiaries of larger, deeper pocketed parent companies are more
> likely to be left standing in the years to come. But then, look at
> BP's decision to pull out of the PV sphere several years ago and the
> Schott group's decision to bail last June. Maybe all bets are off?
>
> And note that in that New York Times piece of today: Non-Chinese
> manufacturers have had quality problems as well. The defective panels
> installed on the Los Angeles area warehouse, for instance, were made
> by an American manufacturer. A reporter was granted access to the
> project on the condition that the parties' identities not be disclosed
> because of a confidential legal settlement.
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-dark-side.html?pagewanted=all&_r=2&
>
>
> Names need to be made public for the good of all concerned.
>
> marco
>
> *From:*re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of
> *Allan Sindelar
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 29, 2013 5:56 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules-Chinese crap?
>
> On more than one occasion in the last year or so I have told a
> potential customer that with the possible exception of Sunpower, and
> perhaps (vertically-integrated and long-established) Kyocera, I'm not
> confident that any manufacturer will be still around in 25 years to
> honor the 25-year warranty that all manufacturers routinely offer.
> This is also one of my points when I do public presentations (my focus
> is always on off grid/battery-based applications). It's partly a
> cautionary note about going for the cheapest price, and the effects of
> the unsustainable drop in module prices on the global PV industry.
>
> It's not just Chinese modules, either. We had BP replace entire arrays
> of 160s under warranty when 25% showed the familiar hot-spot failure.
>
> There is essentially no way to know what's inside of a PV module. The
> NYTimes article is right on: the emperor has no clothes. Better to
> tell the world about the naked emperor sooner than later, so that just
> possibly the shift can begin, from cheapest overall cost-per-watt to
> something akin to a system that will last. But I'm not holding my
> breath: as long as commercial systems are based on short-term
> third-party financial gain - accelerated depreciation and the 30%
> federal tax credit - there's no incentive for systems to be built to
> last, or to cost more than whatever is cheapest up front.
>
> Have you reviewed the list of deceased solar companies?
> https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Rest-in-Peace-The-List-of-Deceased-Solar-Companies
>
> This could turn into quite a rant, so <Rant: OFF>. We all just need to
> be careful what we ask for, because we might get it.
>
>
> Allan
>
> *Allan Sindelar*
> Allan at positiveenergysolar.com <mailto:Allan at positiveenergysolar.com>
> NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder and Chief Technology Officer
> *Positive Energy, Inc.*
> 3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
> *505 424-1112*
> www.positiveenergysolar.com <http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/>
>
> On 5/29/2013 9:01 AM, frenergy wrote:
>
> Hilton,
>
> I have not been experiencing anything unusual in failure
> rates.....of course I have not caved to the up-front lower cost
> tease of Chinese PVs and have only sold USA made PVs built by
> manus in biz for decades. This choice has lost me only a few
> customers, maybe now they will come back. It seems interesting to
> me that you would mention 3 Chinese companies as 'first tier'.
> When I think of first tier I think of companies that have been
> around for much longer than that.
>
> You are absolutely right though, as an industry, "we" need
> to identify this problem and deal with it now, like now, lest we
> go the path of solar thermal in the 80's. Possibly the solar
> bandwagon has become overloaded?
>
> Bill
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:*Hilton Dier III <mailto:hiltondier at gmail.com>
>
> *To:*re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
> <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>
> *Sent:*Wednesday, May 29, 2013 6:08 AM
>
> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Defective modules
>
> Greetings wrenches,
>
> I'm sure many of you have seen this article in the New York
> Times:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-dark-side.html?hp&_r=1&
>
> I have already gotten an email from a panicked client asking
> about canceling his project.
>
> First question: Has anybody dealt with defective modules
> lately, and if so, what brands?
> Second question: How much does this affect first-tier
> manufacturers (Trina, Suntech, Yingli...) and how much of this
> is "no-name" brands?
> Third question: Is this restricted to a particular technology
> such as thin film?
>
> And the big question: How do we deal with this? I can imagine
> the fossil fuel and nuclear industries promoting this story
> with enthusiasm.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Hilton
>
> --
>
> Hilton Dier III
>
> Renewable Energy Design
>
> Partner, Solar Gain LLC
>
> 453 East Hill Rd.
>
> Middlesex, VT 05602
>
>
>
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