[RE-wrenches] Defective modules-Chinese crap?

Solarguy ntrei at 1scom.net
Wed May 29 10:12:03 PDT 2013


 

Vertically integrated companies like Yingli et-al have the advantage of not
having to buy their cells from a third party silicon wafer manufacturer or,
god forbid, on the global spot market. This guarantees that at least they
can maintain and verify their quality. The wafer industry is where the death
spiral began.

China bragged back as early as 2006 that their goal was building 10 Si ingot
refineries solely for export, not their domestic PV market. I recall
recently reading that only six of them were ever built. It could have been a
lot worse. 

But as early as 2008-9 German modules were appearing with inferior PV grade
Si, stepped-on with metallurgical grade Si. Lawsuits were flying. 

Any time there is a limited market and "unlimited" money there will be
cutthroat competition. I watched it happen in Austin where one installer
after another was low-balled to death only to be replaced with two more. In
the early days California to a large degree was the same. Your good fortune
there was that there was political support and regulation in the background.


I've watched up close the parallel universe of natural gas drilling/fracking
that began ten years ago in the Barnett Shale right in my back yard. There
are hundreds of gas drillers, the slur is they're cowboys, all independent
and determined to produce as much gas and profit as possible before the
shakeout begins. That's why gas is so cheap, too many players. But when they
begin the consolidation in gas industry, a cartel will begin to emerge. And
you can bet we won't like it. 

Don't believe for a minute that because the PV industry started out
independent, sustainable and with good green intentions that the investors
give a shit. It's the old adage, get big or get out. 

As for me, at 62 and with 20 years of PV experience under my belt, I'm about
to retire, double the size of my produce production acreage and work my tail
off from home. 

I'll be staying in touch.

 

Jim Duncan

North Texas Renewable Energy Inc

www.ntrei.com <http://www.ntrei.com/>  

NABCEP PV 031310-57

TECL-27398

ntrei at 1scom.net 

817.917.0527

 

NABCEP PV 2

 

 

 

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 10:56 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules-Chinese crap?

 

On more than one occasion in the last year or so I have told a potential
customer that with the possible exception of Sunpower, and perhaps
(vertically-integrated and long-established) Kyocera, I'm not confident that
any manufacturer will be still around in 25 years to honor the 25-year
warranty that all manufacturers routinely offer. This is also one of my
points when I do public presentations (my focus is always on off
grid/battery-based applications). It's partly a cautionary note about going
for the cheapest price, and the effects of the unsustainable drop in module
prices on the global PV industry. 

It's not just Chinese modules, either. We had BP replace entire arrays of
160s under warranty when 25% showed the familiar hot-spot failure. 

There is essentially no way to know what's inside of a PV module. The
NYTimes article is right on: the emperor has no clothes.  Better to tell the
world about the naked emperor sooner than later, so that just possibly the
shift can begin, from cheapest overall cost-per-watt to something akin to a
system that will last. But I'm not holding my breath: as long as commercial
systems are based on short-term third-party financial gain - accelerated
depreciation and the 30% federal tax credit - there's no incentive for
systems to be built to last, or to cost more than whatever is cheapest up
front. 

Have you reviewed the list of deceased solar companies?
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Rest-in-Peace-The-List-of-Decea
sed-Solar-Companies

This could turn into quite a rant, so <Rant: OFF>. We all just need to be
careful what we ask for, because we might get it.


Allan

Allan Sindelar
 <mailto:Allan at positiveenergysolar.com> Allan at positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com <http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/>  

 

 

On 5/29/2013 9:01 AM, frenergy wrote:

Hilton,

 

        I have not been experiencing anything unusual in failure
rates.....of course I have not caved to the up-front lower cost tease of
Chinese PVs and have only sold USA made PVs built by manus in biz for
decades.  This choice has lost me only a few customers, maybe now they will
come back.  It seems interesting to me that you would mention 3 Chinese
companies as 'first tier'.  When I think of first tier I think of companies
that have been around for much longer than that.

 

        You are absolutely right though, as an industry, "we" need to
identify this problem and deal with it now, like now, lest we go the path of
solar thermal in the 80's.  Possibly the solar bandwagon has become
overloaded?

 

Bill



 

 

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Hilton Dier III <mailto:hiltondier at gmail.com>  

To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org 

Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 6:08 AM

Subject: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules

 

Greetings wrenches,

I'm sure many of you have seen this article in the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-d
ark-side.html?hp
<http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-
dark-side.html?hp&_r=1&> &_r=1&

I have already gotten an email from a panicked client asking about canceling
his project.

First question: Has anybody dealt with defective modules lately, and if so,
what brands?
Second question: How much does this affect first-tier manufacturers (Trina,
Suntech, Yingli...) and how much of this is "no-name" brands?
Third question: Is this restricted to a particular technology such as thin
film?

And the big question: How do we deal with this? I can imagine the fossil
fuel and nuclear industries promoting this story with enthusiasm.

Thanks,

Hilton



-- 
Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Partner, Solar Gain LLC
453 East Hill Rd.
Middlesex, VT 05602

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