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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Our only protection at this point is
the Wrenches list. If anybody on the list is seeing premature
failures, we need to know. You folks have saved my tushy many
times in the past. For now, I've stuck mostly with Solar World,
and not had problems. I will not be afraid to call any module
manu out if I have to, to help save this industry. If the failure
rate is high enough, and energy production effected enough, I
could see Congress even pulling the 30% tax credit.<br>
Tying warranties to nondisclosure agreements is bordering on
unethical.<br>
I always knew something was fishy with modules selling for under
$1/ watt<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760</pre>
On 5/29/2013 11:05 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:windowtext">I find that at
least out here in Hawaii, a substantial portion of the PV
buying market really doesn’t care what goes on their roof or
who puts it up; they just want it now (before the grid gets
too saturated and unable to accommodate much more PV) and
they want it cheap. Being in this business for 35 years,
I’ve concluded that warranties are mostly smoke and mirrors
as far as 10 year or longer coverages, whether coming from
manufacturers or integrators. How many of you bother to put
anything away to cover future warranty liabilities? Doesn’t
happen in our business, whether a modco, inverter
manufacturer or integrator. On the flip side, the fact that
the costs of going PV have gone down so much means that even
if mods and inverters have to be replaced at some point in
the future, it shouldn’t cost an arm and a leg.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:windowtext">My theory is that
those manufacturers who are mostly or wholly owned
subsidiaries of larger, deeper pocketed parent companies are
more likely to be left standing in the years to come. But
then, look at BP’s decision to pull out of the PV sphere
several years ago and the Schott group’s decision to bail
last June. Maybe all bets are off?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:windowtext">And note that in
that New York Times piece of today: Non-Chinese
manufacturers have had quality problems as well. The
defective panels installed on the Los Angeles area
warehouse, for instance, were made by an <span
style="background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">American
manufacturer</span>. A reporter was granted access to the
project on the condition that the parties’ identities not be
disclosed because of a confidential legal settlement.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:windowtext"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-dark-side.html?pagewanted=all&_r=2&">http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-dark-side.html?pagewanted=all&_r=2&</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:windowtext">Names need to be
made public for the good of all concerned.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:windowtext">marco<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Allan Sindelar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 29, 2013 5:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Defective
modules-Chinese crap?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">On more than
one occasion in the last year or so I have told a potential
customer that with the possible exception of Sunpower, and
perhaps (vertically-integrated and long-established)
Kyocera, I'm not confident that any manufacturer will be
still around in 25 years to honor the 25-year warranty that
all manufacturers routinely offer. This is also one of my
points when I do public presentations (my focus is always on
off grid/battery-based applications). It's partly a
cautionary note about going for the cheapest price, and the
effects of the unsustainable drop in module prices on the
global PV industry. <br>
<br>
It's not just Chinese modules, either. We had BP replace
entire arrays of 160s under warranty when 25% showed the
familiar hot-spot failure. <br>
<br>
There is essentially no way to know what's inside of a PV
module. The NYTimes article is right on: the emperor has no
clothes. Better to tell the world about the naked emperor
sooner than later, so that just possibly the shift can
begin, from cheapest overall cost-per-watt to something akin
to a system that will last. But I'm not holding my breath:
as long as commercial systems are based on short-term
third-party financial gain - accelerated depreciation and
the 30% federal tax credit - there's no incentive for
systems to be built to last, or to cost more than whatever
is cheapest up front. <br>
<br>
Have you reviewed the list of deceased solar companies? <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Rest-in-Peace-The-List-of-Deceased-Solar-Companies">https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Rest-in-Peace-The-List-of-Deceased-Solar-Companies</a><br>
<br>
This could turn into quite a rant, so <Rant: OFF>. We
all just need to be careful what we ask for, because we
might get it.<br>
<br>
<br>
Allan<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Allan Sindelar</b><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><span
style="color:#000099">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</span></a></span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">NABCEP Certified
Photovoltaic Installer<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder and Chief Technology Officer<br>
<b>Positive Energy, Inc.</b><br>
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)<br>
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<br>
<b>505 424-1112</b><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/"
target="_blank">www.positiveenergysolar.com</a></span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:722.25pt;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 5/29/2013 9:01 AM, frenergy wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hilton,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> I have not been experiencing
anything unusual in failure rates.....of course I have not
caved to the up-front lower cost tease of Chinese PVs and
have only sold USA made PVs built by manus in biz for
decades. This choice has lost me only a few customers,
maybe now they will come back. It seems interesting to me
that you would mention 3 Chinese companies as 'first
tier'. When I think of first tier I think of companies
that have been around for much longer than that.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> You are absolutely right
though, as an industry, "we" need to identify this problem
and deal with it now, like now, lest we go the path of
solar thermal in the 80's. Possibly the solar
bandwagon has become overloaded?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bill<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img id="_x0000_i1025"
src="cid:part5.05050305.07020207@solarray.com"
height="112" width="256" border="0"><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid black
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">-----
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#E4E4E4"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:hiltondier@gmail.com"
title="hiltondier@gmail.com">Hilton Dier III</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">To:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
title="re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Sent:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
Wednesday, May 29, 2013 6:08 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Subject:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
[RE-wrenches] Defective modules<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Greetings wrenches,<br>
<br>
I'm sure many of you have seen this article in the New
York Times: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-dark-side.html?hp&_r=1&">http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-dark-side.html?hp&_r=1&</a><br>
<br>
I have already gotten an email from a panicked client
asking about canceling his project.<br>
<br>
First question: Has anybody dealt with defective modules
lately, and if so, what brands?<br>
Second question: How much does this affect first-tier
manufacturers (Trina, Suntech, Yingli...) and how much of
this is "no-name" brands?<br>
Third question: Is this restricted to a particular
technology such as thin film?<br>
<br>
And the big question: How do we deal with this? I can
imagine the fossil fuel and nuclear industries promoting
this story with enthusiasm.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Hilton<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Hilton Dier III<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Renewable Energy Design<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Partner, Solar Gain LLC<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>453 East Hill Rd.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Middlesex, VT 05602<o:p></o:p></pre>
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