[RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education

Sun Jul 19 14:39:54 PDT 2009

HI Peter;

First I agree with almost everything you said. However, I think you  
took Joel's DIY comment out of context. What he and I are saying, is  
that we both have customers that are more knowledgeable than many of  
the "Professional" installers/ designers/ sales people we are seeing  
in today's market. I was recently at a solar meeting where 25 out of  
the 30 people in the room had been in the business for less than a  
year. These guys are running around today doing site evaluations,  
design quotes on the spot, etc. Very scary.
Neither Joel nor I are saying DIY guys are qualified, but we are  
saying we know a few that are closer than these rooms full of  
newbies. Professional should mean "dedicated one's career to this  
field" but right now, "professional" just means working for money.
Also once someone has some minimum qualifications to actually start  
working in this field on their own (ie, licensed electrician with  
extensive solar training), shouldn't their first solo job be on their  
own house, not someone else's?
Almost everyone on this list went into solar because we knew it was  
the right thing to do, but that paradigm is changing very fast to  
"this is the next way to make a fast buck". I'm very discouraged that  
we can't do more to change that. As Marco mentioned: it’s inevitable  
that a serious fire, injury, or death due to incompetence is gonna  
whack us all over the head soon.

It will hurt our industry, but then maybe we can get back on the  
track of true professionalism that this list and all of you represent.

R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442	

On Jul 19, 2009, at 6:43 AM, Peter Parrish wrote:

> Joel,
>
>
> As a friend, I have enjoyed your perspectives on our business, even  
> though I usually don’t agree with everything you say. I have never  
> taken you to task in a public forum, but I can’t let your latest  
> post go without comment.
>
>
> There is a reason we call these guys DIYs. They have no experience  
> and limited knowledge; in other words they are not professionals.  
> And, by the way, what do you mean by “so-called professional”. I  
> can’t believe you tell some one who wants to get into the solar  
> business to first put one on their home as a DIY. Could you in good  
> conscience recommend someone who has never stepped foot on a roof  
> in their lives to spend a week on one in 90-100 degree weather, in  
> physical contact with modules and other components that are cooking  
> at 145 degrees, and DC voltages approaching 600 V? Squinting at a  
> layout/schematic the likes of which they have never seen before?  
> Someone who hasn’t used anything more than an 8 ft step ladder or  
> doesn’t know what a safety harness is?
>
>
> You also oversimplify: an appropriate apprenticeship for an  
> installer is not the same as that for a design engineer or a  
> salesperson.
>
>
> You don’t need to have installed the PV system you own to  
> appreciate how it works…
>
>
> I am personally aware of three DIY solar projects as well as a  
> dozen or so contractor-installed systems that we have been called  
> out to troubleshoot and fix. Even the best DIY project was worse  
> than worst contractor-installed job.
>
>
> All,
>
>
> But here is my main point. I have a pretty good test of what is key  
> in this PV business of ours. I get a call at least once a week from  
> some one who wants me to “help them with a PV installation”. In  
> addition to DIYs, I get these calls from B and C-10 contractors,  
> facilities managers, apartment owners, and the like. They will take  
> care of [fill in the part that they think they have covered] and  
> they only need help with [fill in the part they need help on].
>
>
> They usually have spent some time on the internet and have an idea  
> of what modules to use and have teased a quote out of a  
> manufacturer or distributor for “5-50 kW” of PV; they usually have  
> some un(der)employed electricians who can read a blueprint, bend  
> and hang conduit and pull wire.
>
>
> What they don’t know is how to
>
>
> (1)     Specify an appropriately sized system
>
> (2)     Design a system (panel orientation, shading, structural  
> calcs, string sizing, ampacity calcs, over current protection,  
> grounding),
>
> (3)     Specify all the speciality BoS components or where to buy  
> them.
>
> (4)     Put together a permit package (that will pass ARB,  
> Planning, Safety and Fire department muster)
>
> (5)     Perform the mechanical side of the installation (read roof  
> penetrations)
>
>
> They usually know about the 30% ITC (or grant) but they just need a  
> little help with the rebate application, which usually means they  
> have some un(der) employed back office folks as well.
>
>
> So for me it boils down to (1) Performance-optimized, Code- 
> compliant Design (Bill Brooks, are you listening?), (2) Plans &  
> Permitting and (3) Mechanical Installation
>
>
> Moreover, what they usually have in the back of their mind is to  
> buy this expertise once from us and then do it all themselves from  
> then on. Some have audacity to use the phrase “I’d like to pick  
> your mind”. Can you imagine that?
>
>
> I second the comment about off-grid, and even though we install  
> grid-tied, battery back-up systems a fair amount – I still don’t  
> pretend to understand the complete off-grid scenario well enough to  
> properly design one.
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> - Peter
>
> <image003.gif>Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
> California Solar Engineering, Inc.
> 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
> CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
> peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
> Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
>
>
> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches- 
> bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel Davidson
> Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 8:50 AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education
>
>
> I agree. I have DIY customers who know more about PV systems than a  
> lot of so-called PV professionals. Designing and installing PV  
> systems is a continuous learning experience. We are practitioners  
> because, like doctors, we practice our trade, expand our knowledge,  
> and hone our skills. I tell people who wants to get in the PV  
> business to put a PV system on their own home. People who tell me  
> that they want to sell PV but can not go solar personally for  
> whatever reason have less credibility. They get less respect from  
> prospective customers who use the same reasons or excuses for not  
> going solar. They either don't last long in the business or are in  
> it only for the money. Granted, there are less operational nuances  
> to a batteryless, grid-tied PV system than a battery-based system  
> or wind or water generator, but living with your work is essential.  
> It makes you keenly aware of unique subtleties and helps you better  
> understand your customers concerns.
>
>
> Joel Davidson
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: R. Walters
>
> To: RE-wrenches
>
> Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 12:05 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education
>
>
>
> For Off grid, no one should even attempt being a designer/  
> installer without living for a full year on their own off grid system.
>
> GT w/ batteries, you need off grid smarts and understand GT.
>
> Training newbies, I can't imagine them being able to do anything  
> other than schlep modules/ do grunt work for a couple of years.
>
> I could see a licensed electrician with a year of full time  
> training being able to do GT w/o batteries.
>
> Most of the market and all the growth is in the GT w/o batteries,  
> so I think your training should concentrate there.
>
> I've taught a semester long PV class, and all I was able to do was  
> create well educated consumers.
>
>
> R. Walters
>
> Solarray.com
>
> NABCEP # 04170442
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 17, 2009, at 9:44 AM, Keith Cronin wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hi gang
>
> I was wondering, what percentage do you believe represents the  
> ratio of classroom training to field training for PV and what  
> percentage you believe should be performed by licensed electricians  
> vs what is deemed mechanical work?
>
> Residential Grid Tie w/out batteries
> ___% classroom- electrician
> ___% field- electrician
>
> Residential Grid Tie w/out batteries
> ___% classroom- mechanical
> ___% field- mechanical
>
> Commercial Grid Tie w/out batteries
> ___% classroom-electrician
> ___% field-electrician
>
> Commercial Grid Tie w/out batteries
> ___% classroom-mechanical
> ___% field-mechanical
>
> Residential GT with batteries
> ____% classroom-electrician
> ____% field-electrician
>
> Residential GT with batteries
> ____% classroom-mechanical
> ____% field-mechanical
>
> Any takers on the off grid market percentages?
>
> Commercial w/ batteries is utility scale and I don't think it can  
> be quantified today as the projects are generally design build and  
> perhaps hard to put an exact # on these.
>
> Thanks
>
> Keith
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
>
> Options & settings:
>
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
>
> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re- 
> wrenches.org
>
>
> List rules & etiquette:
>
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
>
> Check out participant bios:
>
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re- 
> wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
> <image003.gif>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re- 
> wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20090719/94d7f44e/attachment-0003.html>