[RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education
Travis Creswell
tcreswell at ozarkenergyservices.com
Mon Jul 20 07:18:59 PDT 2009
What everyone's failed to mention but I suspect we all know is that it's
impossible to teach common sense. With out common sense all the training in
the world is not going to prepare you for installing a PV system. It's like
the manufacturers actually try to make their manuals as complex as possible.
Often referring to features that aren't there and software revisions that
are many times different then product you just hung on the wall. Some of
these manuals are so bad that if you do exactly what they say you could let
the factory smoke out of the product. I'm speaking mainly of battery based
type products and wind turbines. That's where common sense steps in says
"whoa, stop, this ain't right".
I've seen DIY'ers with a lot more common sense then many "professionals"
plus they really have an investment in the success of their own system.
Still, I don't supply product to DIY'ers because in general it's a really
bad idea on many levels.
Best,
Travis Creswell
Ozark Energy Services
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From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R. Walters
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 4:40 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education
HI Peter;
First I agree with almost everything you said. However, I think you took
Joel's DIY comment out of context. What he and I are saying, is that we both
have customers that are more knowledgeable than many of the "Professional"
installers/ designers/ sales people we are seeing in today's market. I was
recently at a solar meeting where 25 out of the 30 people in the room had
been in the business for less than a year. These guys are running around
today doing site evaluations, design quotes on the spot, etc. Very scary.
Neither Joel nor I are saying DIY guys are qualified, but we are saying we
know a few that are closer than these rooms full of newbies. Professional
should mean "dedicated one's career to this field" but right now,
"professional" just means working for money.
Also once someone has some minimum qualifications to actually start working
in this field on their own (ie, licensed electrician with extensive solar
training), shouldn't their first solo job be on their own house, not someone
else's?
Almost everyone on this list went into solar because we knew it was the
right thing to do, but that paradigm is changing very fast to "this is the
next way to make a fast buck". I'm very discouraged that we can't do more to
change that. As Marco mentioned: it's inevitable that a serious fire,
injury, or death due to incompetence is gonna whack us all over the head
soon.
It will hurt our industry, but then maybe we can get back on the track of
true professionalism that this list and all of you represent.
R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442
On Jul 19, 2009, at 6:43 AM, Peter Parrish wrote:
Joel,
As a friend, I have enjoyed your perspectives on our business, even though I
usually don't agree with everything you say. I have never taken you to task
in a public forum, but I can't let your latest post go without comment.
There is a reason we call these guys DIYs. They have no experience and
limited knowledge; in other words they are not professionals. And, by the
way, what do you mean by "so-called professional". I can't believe you tell
some one who wants to get into the solar business to first put one on their
home as a DIY. Could you in good conscience recommend someone who has never
stepped foot on a roof in their lives to spend a week on one in 90-100
degree weather, in physical contact with modules and other components that
are cooking at 145 degrees, and DC voltages approaching 600 V? Squinting at
a layout/schematic the likes of which they have never seen before? Someone
who hasn't used anything more than an 8 ft step ladder or doesn't know what
a safety harness is?
You also oversimplify: an appropriate apprenticeship for an installer is not
the same as that for a design engineer or a salesperson.
You don't need to have installed the PV system you own to appreciate how it
works.
I am personally aware of three DIY solar projects as well as a dozen or so
contractor-installed systems that we have been called out to troubleshoot
and fix. Even the best DIY project was worse than worst contractor-installed
job.
All,
But here is my main point. I have a pretty good test of what is key in this
PV business of ours. I get a call at least once a week from some one who
wants me to "help them with a PV installation". In addition to DIYs, I get
these calls from B and C-10 contractors, facilities managers, apartment
owners, and the like. They will take care of [fill in the part that they
think they have covered] and they only need help with [fill in the part they
need help on].
They usually have spent some time on the internet and have an idea of what
modules to use and have teased a quote out of a manufacturer or distributor
for "5-50 kW" of PV; they usually have some un(der)employed electricians who
can read a blueprint, bend and hang conduit and pull wire.
What they don't know is how to
(1) Specify an appropriately sized system
(2) Design a system (panel orientation, shading, structural calcs,
string sizing, ampacity calcs, over current protection, grounding),
(3) Specify all the speciality BoS components or where to buy them.
(4) Put together a permit package (that will pass ARB, Planning, Safety
and Fire department muster)
(5) Perform the mechanical side of the installation (read roof
penetrations)
They usually know about the 30% ITC (or grant) but they just need a little
help with the rebate application, which usually means they have some un(der)
employed back office folks as well.
So for me it boils down to (1) Performance-optimized, Code-compliant Design
(Bill Brooks, are you listening?), (2) Plans & Permitting and (3) Mechanical
Installation
Moreover, what they usually have in the back of their mind is to buy this
expertise once from us and then do it all themselves from then on. Some have
audacity to use the phrase "I'd like to pick your mind". Can you imagine
that?
I second the comment about off-grid, and even though we install grid-tied,
battery back-up systems a fair amount - I still don't pretend to understand
the complete off-grid scenario well enough to properly design one.
Regards,
- Peter
<image003.gif>Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
<mailto:peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
_____
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel
Davidson
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 8:50 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education
I agree. I have DIY customers who know more about PV systems than a lot of
so-called PV professionals. Designing and installing PV systems is a
continuous learning experience. We are practitioners because, like doctors,
we practice our trade, expand our knowledge, and hone our skills. I tell
people who wants to get in the PV business to put a PV system on their own
home. People who tell me that they want to sell PV but can not go solar
personally for whatever reason have less credibility. They get less respect
from prospective customers who use the same reasons or excuses for not going
solar. They either don't last long in the business or are in it only for the
money. Granted, there are less operational nuances to a batteryless,
grid-tied PV system than a battery-based system or wind or water generator,
but living with your work is essential. It makes you keenly aware of unique
subtleties and helps you better understand your customers concerns.
Joel Davidson
----- Original Message -----
From: R. Walters <mailto:walters at taosnet.com>
To: RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 12:05 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education
For Off grid, no one should even attempt being a designer/ installer without
living for a full year on their own off grid system.
GT w/ batteries, you need off grid smarts and understand GT.
Training newbies, I can't imagine them being able to do anything other than
schlep modules/ do grunt work for a couple of years.
I could see a licensed electrician with a year of full time training being
able to do GT w/o batteries.
Most of the market and all the growth is in the GT w/o batteries, so I think
your training should concentrate there.
I've taught a semester long PV class, and all I was able to do was create
well educated consumers.
R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442
On Jul 17, 2009, at 9:44 AM, Keith Cronin wrote:
Hi gang
I was wondering, what percentage do you believe represents the ratio of
classroom training to field training for PV and what percentage you believe
should be performed by licensed electricians vs what is deemed mechanical
work?
Residential Grid Tie w/out batteries
___% classroom- electrician
___% field- electrician
Residential Grid Tie w/out batteries
___% classroom- mechanical
___% field- mechanical
Commercial Grid Tie w/out batteries
___% classroom-electrician
___% field-electrician
Commercial Grid Tie w/out batteries
___% classroom-mechanical
___% field-mechanical
Residential GT with batteries
____% classroom-electrician
____% field-electrician
Residential GT with batteries
____% classroom-mechanical
____% field-mechanical
Any takers on the off grid market percentages?
Commercial w/ batteries is utility scale and I don't think it can be
quantified today as the projects are generally design build and perhaps hard
to put an exact # on these.
Thanks
Keith
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