[RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education

Sun Jul 19 10:50:52 PDT 2009

Hello Peter,

I should have noted that some of my DIY customers include licensed contractors, mechanics, hands-on scientists, and engineers, as well as skilled non-professionals. By so-called professionals, I refer to sales engineers who are neither trained sales people or engineers and contractors who do not know the skills that you list. I make it pretty clear in the latest edition of The New Solar Electric Home book that readers should seek experts and tell them how to identify competent contractors.

Nevertheless, I will always encourage people to learn how to protect and enhance their environment and themselves, to grow their food, to make their clothes, to build their home, learn how things work, and learn more skills. They may not want to, or be able to, do everything for themselves, but they should not be denied the freedom to be self-reliant.

Joel Davidson

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Peter Parrish 
  To: 'RE-wrenches' 
  Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 9:43 AM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education

  Joel,

  As a friend, I have enjoyed your perspectives on our business, even though I usually don't agree with everything you say. I have never taken you to task in a public forum, but I can't let your latest post go without comment.

  There is a reason we call these guys DIYs. They have no experience and limited knowledge; in other words they are not professionals. And, by the way, what do you mean by "so-called professional". I can't believe you tell some one who wants to get into the solar business to first put one on their home as a DIY. Could you in good conscience recommend someone who has never stepped foot on a roof in their lives to spend a week on one in 90-100 degree weather, in physical contact with modules and other components that are cooking at 145 degrees, and DC voltages approaching 600 V? Squinting at a layout/schematic the likes of which they have never seen before? Someone who hasn't used anything more than an 8 ft step ladder or doesn't know what a safety harness is?

  You also oversimplify: an appropriate apprenticeship for an installer is not the same as that for a design engineer or a salesperson.

  You don't need to have installed the PV system you own to appreciate how it works.

  I am personally aware of three DIY solar projects as well as a dozen or so contractor-installed systems that we have been called out to troubleshoot and fix. Even the best DIY project was worse than worst contractor-installed job. 

  All,

  But here is my main point. I have a pretty good test of what is key in this PV business of ours. I get a call at least once a week from some one who wants me to "help them with a PV installation". In addition to DIYs, I get these calls from B and C-10 contractors, facilities managers, apartment owners, and the like. They will take care of [fill in the part that they think they have covered] and they only need help with [fill in the part they need help on].

  They usually have spent some time on the internet and have an idea of what modules to use and have teased a quote out of a manufacturer or distributor for "5-50 kW" of PV; they usually have some un(der)employed electricians who can read a blueprint, bend and hang conduit and pull wire.

  What they don't know is how to 

  (1)     Specify an appropriately sized system

  (2)     Design a system (panel orientation, shading, structural calcs, string sizing, ampacity calcs, over current protection, grounding), 

  (3)     Specify all the speciality BoS components or where to buy them.

  (4)     Put together a permit package (that will pass ARB, Planning, Safety and Fire department muster)

  (5)     Perform the mechanical side of the installation (read roof penetrations)

  They usually know about the 30% ITC (or grant) but they just need a little help with the rebate application, which usually means they have some un(der) employed back office folks as well.

  So for me it boils down to (1) Performance-optimized, Code-compliant Design (Bill Brooks, are you listening?), (2) Plans & Permitting and (3) Mechanical Installation

  Moreover, what they usually have in the back of their mind is to buy this expertise once from us and then do it all themselves from then on. Some have audacity to use the phrase "I'd like to pick your mind". Can you imagine that?

  I second the comment about off-grid, and even though we install grid-tied, battery back-up systems a fair amount - I still don't pretend to understand the complete off-grid scenario well enough to properly design one.

  Regards,

  - Peter

  Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
  California Solar Engineering, Inc.
  820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
  CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
  peter.parrish at calsolareng.com  
  Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885                                                                                                   

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  From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel Davidson
  Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 8:50 AM
  To: RE-wrenches
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education

  I agree. I have DIY customers who know more about PV systems than a lot of so-called PV professionals. Designing and installing PV systems is a continuous learning experience. We are practitioners because, like doctors, we practice our trade, expand our knowledge, and hone our skills. I tell people who wants to get in the PV business to put a PV system on their own home. People who tell me that they want to sell PV but can not go solar personally for whatever reason have less credibility. They get less respect from prospective customers who use the same reasons or excuses for not going solar. They either don't last long in the business or are in it only for the money. Granted, there are less operational nuances to a batteryless, grid-tied PV system than a battery-based system or wind or water generator, but living with your work is essential. It makes you keenly aware of unique subtleties and helps you better understand your customers concerns.

  Joel Davidson

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: R. Walters 

    To: RE-wrenches 

    Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 12:05 AM

    Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education

    For Off grid, no one should even attempt being a designer/ installer without living for a full year on their own off grid system. 

    GT w/ batteries, you need off grid smarts and understand GT.

    Training newbies, I can't imagine them being able to do anything other than schlep modules/ do grunt work for a couple of years.

    I could see a licensed electrician with a year of full time training being able to do GT w/o batteries.

    Most of the market and all the growth is in the GT w/o batteries, so I think your training should concentrate there.

    I've taught a semester long PV class, and all I was able to do was create well educated consumers.

    R. Walters

    Solarray.com

    NABCEP # 04170442 

    On Jul 17, 2009, at 9:44 AM, Keith Cronin wrote:

    Hi gang

    I was wondering, what percentage do you believe represents the ratio of classroom training to field training for PV and what percentage you believe should be performed by licensed electricians vs what is deemed mechanical work?

    Residential Grid Tie w/out batteries
    ___% classroom- electrician
    ___% field- electrician

    Residential Grid Tie w/out batteries
    ___% classroom- mechanical
    ___% field- mechanical

    Commercial Grid Tie w/out batteries
    ___% classroom-electrician
    ___% field-electrician

    Commercial Grid Tie w/out batteries
    ___% classroom-mechanical
    ___% field-mechanical

    Residential GT with batteries
    ____% classroom-electrician
    ____% field-electrician

    Residential GT with batteries
    ____% classroom-mechanical
    ____% field-mechanical

    Any takers on the off grid market percentages?

    Commercial w/ batteries is utility scale and I don't think it can be quantified today as the projects are generally design build and perhaps hard to put an exact # on these.

    Thanks

    Keith

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