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HI Peter;<div><br></div><div>First I agree with almost everything you said. However, I think you took Joel's DIY comment out of context. What he and I are saying, is that we both have customers that are more knowledgeable than many of the "Professional" installers/ designers/ sales people we are seeing in today's market. I was recently at a solar meeting where 25 out of the 30 people in the room had been in the business for less than a year. These guys are running around today doing site evaluations, design quotes on the spot, etc. Very scary. </div><div>Neither Joel nor I are saying DIY guys are qualified, but we are saying we know a few that are closer than these rooms full of newbies. Professional should mean "dedicated one's career to this field" but right now, "professional" just means working for money.</div><div>Also once someone has some minimum qualifications to actually start working in this field on their own (ie, licensed electrician with extensive solar training), shouldn't their first solo job be on their own house, not someone else's?</div><div>Almost everyone on this list went into solar because we knew it was the right thing to do, but that paradigm is changing very fast to "this is the next way to make a fast buck". I'm very discouraged that we can't do more to change that. As Marco mentioned: <span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(44, 74, 122); font-size: 15px; ">it’s inevitable that a serious fire, injury, or death due to incompetence is gonna whack us all over the head soon.</span></div><div><br></div><div><div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; "><div>It will hurt our industry, but then maybe we can get back on the track of true professionalism that this list and all of you represent.</div><div><br></div><div>R. Walters</div><div>Solarray.com<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span></div><div>NABCEP # 04170442<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="white-space: pre; "> </span></span></div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span> </div><br><div><div>On Jul 19, 2009, at 6:43 AM, Peter Parrish wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"> <div class="Section1"><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">Joel,</span></font></p><div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">As a friend, I have enjoyed your perspectives on our business, even though I usually don’t agree with everything you say. I have never taken you to task in a public forum, but I can’t let your latest post go without comment.</span></font></p><div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">There is a reason we call these guys DIYs. They have no experience and limited knowledge; in other words they are not professionals. And, by the way, what do you mean by “so-called professional”. I can’t believe you tell some one who wants to get into the solar business to first put one on their home as a DIY. Could you in good conscience recommend someone who has never stepped foot on a roof in their lives to spend a week on one in 90-100 degree weather, in physical contact with modules and other components that are cooking at 145 degrees, and DC voltages approaching 600 V? Squinting at a layout/schematic the likes of which they have never seen before? Someone who hasn’t used anything more than an 8 ft step ladder or doesn’t know what a safety harness is?</span></font></p><div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">You also oversimplify: an appropriate apprenticeship for an installer is not the same as that for a design engineer or a salesperson.</span></font></p><div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">You don’t need to have installed the PV system you own to appreciate how it works…</span></font></p><div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">I am personally aware of three DIY solar projects as well as a dozen or so contractor-installed systems that we have been called out to troubleshoot and fix. Even the best DIY project was worse than worst contractor-installed job. </span></font></p><div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">All,</span></font></p><div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">But here is my main point. I have a pretty good test of what is key in this PV business of ours. I get a call at least once a week from some one who wants me to “help them with a PV installation”. In addition to DIYs, I get these calls from B and C-10 contractors, facilities managers, apartment owners, and the like. They will take care of [fill in the part that they think they have covered] and they only need help with [fill in the part they need help on].</span></font></p><div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">They usually have spent some time on the internet and have an idea of what modules to use and have teased a quote out of a manufacturer or distributor for “5-50 kW” of PV; they usually have some un(der)employed electricians who can read a blueprint, bend and hang conduit and pull wire.</span></font></p><div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">What they don’t know is how to </span></font></p><div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">(1)<font size="1" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></font></span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Specify an appropriately sized system</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">(2)<font size="1" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></font></span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Design a system (panel orientation, shading, structural calcs, string sizing, ampacity calcs, over current protection, grounding), </span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">(3)<font size="1" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></font></span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Specify all the speciality BoS components or where to buy them.</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">(4)<font size="1" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></font></span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Put together a permit package (that will pass ARB, Planning, Safety and Fire department muster)</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">(5)<font size="1" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></font></span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Perform the mechanical side of the installation (read roof penetrations)</span></font></p><div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">They usually know about the 30% ITC (or grant) but they just need a little help with the rebate application, which usually means they have some un(der) employed back office folks as well.</span></font></p><div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">So for me it boils down to (1) Performance-optimized, Code-compliant Design (Bill Brooks, are you listening?), (2) Plans & Permitting and (3) Mechanical Installation</span></font></p><div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">Moreover, what they usually have in the back of their mind is to buy this expertise once from us and then do it all themselves from then on. Some have audacity to use the phrase “I’d like to pick your mind”. Can you imagine that?</span></font></p><div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">I second the comment about off-grid, and even though we install grid-tied, battery back-up systems a fair amount – I still don’t pretend to understand the complete off-grid scenario well enough to properly design one.</span></font></p><div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">Regards,</span></font></p><div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">- Peter</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><image003.gif></span><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy">Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President<br> California Solar Engineering, Inc.<br> 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065<br> CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26<br> <a href="mailto:peter.parrish@calsolareng.com"><font color="navy"><span style="color:navy">peter.parrish@calsolareng.com</span></font></a> <br> Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885 </span></font></p><div><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family: Arial;color:navy"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> <hr size="2" width="100%" align="center" tabindex="-1"> </span></font></div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> [<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b><span style="font-weight: bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Joel Davidson<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, July 18, 2009 8:50 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> RE-wrenches<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education</span></font></p> </div><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">I agree. I have DIY customers who know more about PV systems than a lot of so-called PV professionals. Designing and installing PV systems is a continuous learning experience. We are practitioners because, like doctors, we practice our trade, expand our knowledge, and hone our skills. I tell people who wants to get in the PV business to put a PV system on their own home. People who tell me that they want to sell PV but can not go solar personally for whatever reason have less credibility. They get less respect from prospective customers who use the same reasons or excuses for not going solar. They either don't last long in the business or are in it only for the money. Granted, there are less operational nuances to a batteryless, grid-tied PV system than a battery-based system or wind or water generator, but living with your work is essential. It makes you keenly aware of unique subtleties and helps you better understand your customers concerns.</span></font></p> </div> <div><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">Joel Davidson</span></font></p> </div> <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid black 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 3.0pt; margin-left:2.5pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">----- Original Message ----- </span></font></p> </div> <div style="font-color:black"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#E4E4E4"><b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"> <a href="mailto:walters@taosnet.com" title="walters@taosnet.com">R. Walters</a> </span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold">To:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" title="re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches</a> </span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"> Saturday, July 18, 2009 12:05 AM</span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"> Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education</span></font></p> </div> <div><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> </div> <div><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">For Off grid, no one should even attempt being a designer/ installer without living for a full year on their own off grid system. </span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">GT w/ batteries, you need off grid smarts and understand GT.</span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">Training newbies, I can't imagine them being able to do anything other than schlep modules/ do grunt work for a couple of years.</span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">I could see a licensed electrician with a year of full time training being able to do GT w/o batteries.</span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">Most of the market and all the growth is in the GT w/o batteries, so I think your training should concentrate there.</span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">I've taught a semester long PV class, and all I was able to do was create well educated consumers.</span></font></p> </div> <div><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> </div> <div><span style="WIDOWS: 2;BORDER-SPACING: 0px 0px;ORPHANS: 2;-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto;word-spacing:0px"> <div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">R. Walters</span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Solarray.com</span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">NABCEP # 04170442<span class="apple-style-span"> </span></span></font></p><div><span class="apple-style-span"><font size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> </span></font></span><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> </div> <div><div><font size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> </div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="black" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br> <br> </span></font></p> </div> </span><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"> </span></font><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> <div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">On Jul 17, 2009, at 9:44 AM, Keith Cronin wrote:</span></font></p> </div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt"><br> <br> </span></font></p> <div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">Hi gang<br> <br> I was wondering, what percentage do you believe represents the ratio of classroom training to field training for PV and what percentage you believe should be performed by licensed electricians vs what is deemed mechanical work?<br> <br> Residential Grid Tie w/out batteries<br> ___% classroom- electrician<br> ___% field- electrician<br> <br> Residential Grid Tie w/out batteries<br> ___% classroom- mechanical<br> ___% field- mechanical<br> <br> Commercial Grid Tie w/out batteries<br> ___% classroom-electrician<br> ___% field-electrician<br> <br> Commercial Grid Tie w/out batteries<br> ___% classroom-mechanical<br> ___% field-mechanical<br> <br> Residential GT with batteries<br> ____% classroom-electrician<br> ____% field-electrician<br> <br> Residential GT with batteries<br> ____% classroom-mechanical<br> ____% field-mechanical<br> <br> Any takers on the off grid market percentages?<br> <br> Commercial w/ batteries is utility scale and I don't think it can be quantified today as the projects are generally design build and perhaps hard to put an exact # on these.<br> <br> Thanks<br> <br> Keith</span></font></p> </div> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">_______________________________________________</span></font></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt">List sponsored by Home Power 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