[RE-wrenches] Inverters and their Manufacturers

Mon Mar 30 09:29:54 PDT 2009

MessageWe all define beta test units differently. For example, with cars, I don't buy the first year model so I got the 2001 Prius, but I did trade it in for the 2006 because it was an improvement over the earlier models. With inverters, I really like my 11 year old Trace SW4048 but wanted to expand my system with a batteryless inverter so I got an SMA as they have tens of thousands of reliable units in the field. Believe me, I was tempted to buy a US-made inverter, but I read too many wrenches' comments about problems and do not have the time or money to mess around. Matt's list will be a valuable tool for flushing out problems.

Of course you are not going to ask your average customer to try a new inverter and sign a waiver or whatever you want to call it. But a lot of customers want the latest-and-greatest widget, so be honest with them and tell them that you have not installed any or only X number of what they want. For your average customers, only sell them reliable equipment backed by reliable companies who work with you to solve problems quickly in the customer's favor and not out of your pocket.

Regarding manufacturers, I have been general manager of 2 PV factories and I know a lot of people in manufacturing of all kinds of products. Almost all the techie managers are knowledgeable, dedicated people who really want to make the best product. But problems happen. The good news is techie managers are great problem solvers. Several wrenches are working with manufacturers and know how difficult it is to decide when to pull the trigger to release a new product or to shoot it down.

So the next time your customers say they want the latest technology, tell them the truth. New products have problems. They can either buy tried-and-true reliable equipment or accept the responsibility for trying something new.

Joel Davidson
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tump 
  To: 'RE-wrenches' 
  Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:00 AM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverters and their Manufacturers

  But seriously, how about getting in writing from the customer that he/she is getting the opportunity to use a new inverter design with new features but may also have some unknown design issues that could, from time to time, require attention?  

  At what point does an inverter, cc or other BOS components become something other then a "the latest-and-greatest gadget in the beta-testing process."
  IF we are to install components that have " have some unknown design issues that could, from time to time, require attention? "when do we have the understanding & the willingness from the manus to be compensated.Do we too sign something from the manufacture? Hey no problem I'll travel 200 miles & install your product cause you told me it wasn't too reliable.
  I don't think that the issue we are talking about is/ are Bata test components.
   You can't tell me that the manufactures have just had isolated incidents of product failure that they have chosen to ignore.
  We the installers, are the folks who have our reputations compromised by component failures.
  I can't wait for my next customer to hear that they need to sign a paper indicating that the products might work , might not, but solar is reaaalllly reliable.
  Again I DO NOT put all the blame on the manufactures but having a qc guideline not only for installations but warrantee issues.This just might be a better way to prevent problems & then to fix issues that arise due to product failure in which that both parties agree on.
  What you did w/ Omni is exactly what I am talking about.
  These issues are not new to the industry but getting the manufactures to discuss & work on guide lines for testing for failures in the field & compensating those individuals that comply  w/ the test process in order to address these issues IS!
   NO sarcasm intended.

  -----Original Message-----
  From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel Davidson
  Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:50 AM
  To: RE-wrenches
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverters and their Manufacturers

    Not buying equipment that does not work. Excuse my sarcasm, but what a concept. How about not pushing manufacturers to release their products prematurely? No one on this list would ever do that - more sarcasm.

    But seriously, how about getting in writing from the customer that he/she is getting the opportunity to use a new inverter design with new features but may also have some unknown design issues that could, from time to time, require attention? In conjunction with the customer warning, get the manufacturer's cooperation to share call-back and repair or replacement costs. In other words, involve your customers who want the latest-and-greatest gadget in the beta-testing process.

    Some of you heard this story before, but it is worth repeating. Several years ago, I did a project with 250 Omnion inverters. Omnion inverters were not very reliable but they were all we had at the time. Infant mortality rate was over 6%. The manufacturer blamed the installers and I blamed inadequate factory final testing. Hans Myers, Omnion owner, was a good engineer and a reasonable guy. He agreed to switch from 8 hours factory burn-in to 3 days burn-in before shipping. I agreed to have installers follow a specific installation procedure (send for copy off-list) and sign-off on their installation. Infant mortality rate dropped to 0%. Lesson learned: work with your suppliers to the benefit of your customers and your bottom line.

    Joel Davidson

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Tump 
      To: 'RE-wrenches' 
      Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 4:34 AM
      Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Iverters and their Manufacturers COMPENSATIONcheck list?

      Perhaps this might be an additional reason to really work on the installer's guild. 
      If this trend continues (it hasn't changed since the beginning) then we as a group might single out one Manu per month & NOT purchases their product. 
      Two things might happen; 
      1)They might then have the time to actually build products that have a bit better reliability .
      2) If there is a problem WHEN we start to buy their product the Manu's realize WE the installers, who SELL & INSTALL their products  + put food on their tables, have THE POWER to affect their bottom line as they do w/ ours due to lost opportunity costs &  expenses incurred while replacing faulty equipment.
      Probably wouldn't take too long for one of the manufactures to hear from their distributors that they are not selling anything.

      I will NOT say that all the problems are due to Manu's problems.
      I know that I am guilty of not ALWAYS checking the basics & blaming things that ARE NOT fault of the Manu's but loose wires that. "I swear I checked or my wires never loosened up".
      Many of us have offered suggestions regarding trouble shooting issues in the past & Bill B has put together a "installers check list''.How about it Bill?, knowing you, this is something you put together back at PVusa oh those many years ago
      This could be the start of a way to finally develop a industry wide & Manu. accepted check list to properly assess an issue & then the fix.
      How about is you manufactures, think this may be a way to compensate the installers that DO have an issue w/ your products & not their installations.
        -----Original Message-----
        From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter Parrish
        Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:59 PM
        To: 'RE-wrenches'
        Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iverters and their Manufacturers

        I don't know about the rest of this group, but we have noticed a steady increase in inverter warranty calls. It used to be one a year; then things started to increase to the point of at least one per-month. In the beginning it was the just the GEC-1000s, then the SMA EEPROM debacle, followed by the Fronius IG firmware problem, followed by the Xantrex GT "controlled flight into terrain". Now both Outback systems we have installed recently have gone down (#@!?*). We are finding that most manufacturers are essentially indifferent to installers who are an integral part of their warranty obligation and are doing a poor job of supporting installers for a variety of reasons, to wit:

        (1)   Outback will not reimburse installers period. Not for anything that they do. They require that equipment be removed and sent to WA for repair or replacement, or will ship replacement parts when the problem is obvious, but that's it. We have had one repair last month and are facing a second in April. We paid extra for the CEC-grade warranty, and I expected more. Based on this experience, I will not recommend or sell Outback equipment, until this policy changes.

        (2)   Xantrex lost a returned GT inverter! They began dunning us for it. We had the RMA on file but didn't bother to write down the tracking number from the Xantrex-generated UPS label (what am I going to do with an inverter that won't invert?). So not only will they not process our request for reimbursement, they "want their inverter back".

        (3)   SMA didn't want to honor payment on a service call for an EEPROM swap out, even though I had an email from one of their techies promising just that. After I produced the smoking gun, they pointed out that we were about six weeks late in sending in the reimbursement paperwork - they weren't going to pay us. They've taken a legally defensible position, but it makes for terrible public relations.

        (4)   I thought Fronius might the only cowboy wearing a white hat, but no. They want us to wait a month before reimbursing not us but our distributor who only had the misfortune of selling us bad merchandise. How we manage (and when) to get reimbursed from our distributor, only time will tell, but I bet they won't cut us a check.

        But I am saving my best story for last.

        (5)   Xantrex II: we had a terrible time getting an XW6048 to work properly (the details are unimportant, except to say the design was spot on). I made six service calls after installing it last Summer. I did a firmware upgrade, tightened even terminal and wiggled every wire I could. I checked the module connections and the PV combiner box. We programmed and reprogrammed every possible system parameter, to no avail. After about 4 months (5?), I refused to make any more service calls without a Xantrex technician at my side, and the customer threatened to see an attorney. Xantrex eventually sent a technician down to Los Angeles and administered another firmware upgrade and the system settled down. Do you think they are willing to pay for any of our post-install service calls? 

        I don't switch vendors very often or without good reason, but I don't expect to sell another Outback based system, nor do I expect to sell another GT. I am trying to convince my salesmen to sell the Sunny Island system over the Xantrex XW product (for a number of reasons) even though it is a more expensive proposition. 

        Is the following too much to ask for? 

        - Superior, real-time technical support in the field, including generation of an RMA on the spot

        - Replacement equipment promptly shipped with prepaid shipping labels for the return of the defective item.

        - Receipt of defective equipment by the manufacturer, triggers installer payment without the requirement of submitting a separate invoice.

        - Direct payment to company servicing the equipment, within 30 days of the service.

        I am not aware of a single Company out there which meets the above four criteria, but I haven't looked closely at PVP or some of the others. All other things being equal, I would really like to get behind a manufacturer of quality inverters who also treats installers as partners in the warranty department, and be able to extol their virtues to customers. In the next breath, I will patiently explain to the prospective customer the hazards of purchasing an inverter from a Company that does not have a sound and equitable warranty policy.

        Any thoughts? And let's remember, at least on this list, they are all listening.

        - Peter

        Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
        California Solar Engineering, Inc.
        820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
        Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
        CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
        peter.parrish at calsolareng.com 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

      _______________________________________________
      List sponsored by Home Power magazine

      List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org

      Options & settings:
      http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

      List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

      List rules & etiquette:
      www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

      Check out participant bios:
      www.members.re-wrenches.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  _______________________________________________
  List sponsored by Home Power magazine

  List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org

  Options & settings:
  http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

  List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

  List rules & etiquette:
  www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

  Check out participant bios:
  www.members.re-wrenches.org

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20090330/3f934b58/attachment-0003.html>