[RE-wrenches] Inverters and their Manufacturers

Mon Mar 30 10:15:39 PDT 2009

We all have experienced the woes of the latest and greatest, as it tends to offer something that the previous model or another manu did not have. We all know that we are on the bleeding edge of technology, and with that premise in mind, the perfect inverter is the stuff of science fiction, not of engineering. Innovation is about taking some risks and learning from our failures and giving feedback to make things better. We all have clients out there that took risks with us to also be on the bleeding edge. We all learn from our mistakes and for me, this sometimes has been my well to constantly drink from- a resource to learn and like our industry- to share and improve what we are all trying to do- change the world, one clean electron at a time.

I am also servicing an old client with a SMA3800- the 4th replacement being delivered this week. Got manu support and they are also learning, by us, their customers, the challenges we all face. They need feedback on what is great and what needs improvement. We have a Astronauts type of obligation and committment to filling in the blanks for them. Sure they all tend to get enthused about pushing products out potentially early, alot because we want them. If we correlelate it to Joels theorem as well, we can wait, but we are all innovators and want to share with the latest and greatest. Most designs, from an engineering perspective are done from a defensive angle anyway, and are usually overly conservative. We all fall short at times in reaching our stated objectives as nothing is perfect, but taking the safe and easy path is a road to a mundance existence.

If I can steal away a quote from Descartes famous line- Cogito ergo sum (I think, therefore I am) and replace it with Fallor ergo sum (I fail, therefore I am). We all have nothing to loose but our mediocrity....so lets continue to innovate and grow and take our lumps and improve on yesterday for a better tomorrow.

Aloha

Keith

________________________________
From: Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 6:29:54 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverters and their Manufacturers

Message  
We all define beta test units differently. For 
example, with cars, I don't buy the first year model so I got the 2001 Prius, 
but I did trade it in for the 2006 because it was an improvement over the 
earlier models. With inverters, I really like my 11 year old Trace SW4048 but 
wanted to expand my system with a batteryless inverter so I got an SMA as they 
have tens of thousands of reliable units in the field. Believe me, I was tempted 
to buy a US-made inverter, but I read too many wrenches' comments about 
problems and do not have the time or money to mess around. Matt's list will 
be a valuable tool for flushing out problems.

Of course you are not going to ask your average 
customer to try a new inverter and sign a waiver or whatever you want to 
call it. But a lot of customers want the latest-and-greatest widget, so be 
honest with them and tell them that you have not installed any or only X number 
of what they want. For your average customers, only sell them reliable equipment 
backed by reliable companies who work with you to solve problems quickly in the 
customer's favor and not out of your pocket.

Regarding manufacturers, I have been general 
manager of 2 PV factories and I know a lot of people in manufacturing of 
all kinds of products. Almost all the techie managers are knowledgeable, 
dedicated people who really want to make the best product. But problems 
happen. The good news is techie managers are great problem solvers. Several 
wrenches are working with manufacturers and know how difficult it is to decide 
when to pull the trigger to release a new product or to shoot it 
down.

So the next time your customers say they want 
the latest technology, tell them the truth. New products have 
problems. They can either buy tried-and-true reliable equipment or accept 
the responsibility for trying something new.

Joel Davidson
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Tump 
To: 'RE-wrenches' 
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:00 
AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverters and  their Manufacturers

But seriously, how about getting in writing  from the customer that he/she is getting the opportunity to use a  new inverter design with new features but may also have some unknown design issues that could,  from time to time, require attention?  

At  what point does an inverter, cc or other BOS components become something other  then a "the latest-and-greatest gadget in the beta-testing  process."
IF  we are to install components that have " have some  unknown design issues that could, from time to time, require attention?  "when do we have the  understanding & the willingness from the manus to be compensated.Do we too  sign something from the manufacture? Hey no problem I'll travel 200 miles  & install your product cause you told me it wasn't too  reliable.
I  don't think that the issue we are talking about is/ are Bata test  components.
 You can't tell me that the manufactures have  just had isolated incidents of product failure that they have chosen to  ignore.
We  the installers, are the folks who have our reputations compromised by  component failures.
I  can't wait for my next customer to hear that they need to sign a paper  indicating that the products might work , might not, but solar is reaaalllly  reliable.
Again I DO NOT put all the blame on the manufactures  but having a qc guideline not only for installations but warrantee issues.This  just might be a better way to prevent problems & then to fix issues that  arise due to product failure in which that both parties agree  on.
What you did w/ Omni  is exactly what I am talking about.
These issues are not  new to the industry but getting the manufactures to discuss & work on  guide lines for testing for failures in the field & compensating those  individuals that comply  w/ the test process in order  to address these issues IS!
 NO sarcasm intended.

-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org  [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel  Davidson
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:50 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverters and their  Manufacturers

Not buying equipment that does not work. Excuse  my sarcasm, but what a concept. How about not  pushing manufacturers to release their products  prematurely? No one on this list would ever do that - more  sarcasm.

But seriously, how about getting  in writing from the customer that he/she is getting the  opportunity to use a new inverter design with new  features but may also have some unknown  design issues that could, from time to time, require attention? In  conjunction with the customer warning, get the manufacturer's  cooperation to share call-back and repair or replacement costs. In  other words, involve your customers who want the latest-and-greatest gadget  in the beta-testing process.

Some of you heard this story before, but it is  worth repeating. Several years ago, I did a project with 250 Omnion  inverters. Omnion inverters were not very reliable but they were all we  had at the time. Infant mortality rate was over 6%. The manufacturer  blamed the installers and I blamed inadequate factory final  testing. Hans Myers, Omnion owner, was a good engineer and a reasonable guy.  He agreed to switch from 8 hours factory burn-in to 3 days burn-in before  shipping. I agreed to have installers follow a specific installation  procedure (send for copy off-list) and sign-off on their installation.  Infant mortality rate dropped to 0%. Lesson learned: work with your  suppliers to the benefit of your customers and your bottom 
line.

Joel Davidson

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Tump 
To: 'RE-wrenches' 
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 4:34  AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Iverters  and their Manufacturers COMPENSATIONcheck list?

Perhaps this might be an additional reason to really work on the  installer's guild. 
If this trend continues (it hasn't changed since the beginning)  then we as a group might single out one Manu per month & NOT purchases  their product. 
Two things might happen; 
1)They might then have the time to actually build products that  have a bit better reliability .
2) If there is a problem WHEN we start to buy their product  the Manu's realize WE the installers, who SELL & INSTALL their  products  + put food on their tables, have THE POWER to  affect their bottom line as they do w/ ours due to lost opportunity  costs &  expenses incurred while replacing faulty  equipment.
Probably wouldn't take too long for one of the manufactures to  hear from their distributors that they are not selling  anything.

I will NOT say that all the problems are due to Manu's  problems.
I know that I am guilty of not ALWAYS checking the basics &  blaming things that ARE NOT fault of the Manu's but loose wires that. "I  swear I checked or my wires never loosened up".
Many of us have offered suggestions regarding trouble shooting  issues in the past & Bill B has put together a "installers check  list''.How about it Bill?, knowing you, this is something you put together  back at PVusa oh those many years ago
This could be the start of a way to  finally develop a industry wide & Manu. accepted check list to  properly assess an issue & then  the fix.
How about is you manufactures, think this may be a way to  compensate the installers that DO have an issue w/ your products  & not their installations.
-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org  [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter Parrish
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:59  PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iverters  and their Manufacturers

I don’t know about the rest of  this group, but we have noticed a steady increase in inverter warranty  calls. It used to be one a year; then things started to increase to the  point of at least one per-month. In the beginning it was the just the  GEC-1000s, then the SMA EEPROM debacle, followed by the Fronius IG  firmware problem, followed by the Xantrex GT “controlled flight into  terrain”. Now both Outback systems we have installed recently have gone  down (#@!?*). We are finding that most manufacturers are essentially  indifferent to installers who are an integral part of their warranty  obligation and are doing a poor job of supporting installers for a  variety of reasons, to wit:

(1)   Outback will not reimburse installers period. Not  for anything that they do. They require that equipment be removed and  sent to WA for repair or replacement, or will ship replacement parts  when the problem is obvious, but that’s it. We have had one repair last  month and are facing a second in April. We paid extra for the CEC-grade  warranty, and I expected more. Based on this experience, I will not  recommend or sell Outback equipment, until this policy  changes.
(2)   Xantrex lost a returned GT inverter! They began  dunning us for it. We had the RMA on file but didn’t bother to write  down the tracking number from the Xantrex-generated UPS label (what am I  going to do with an inverter that won’t invert?). So not only will they  not process our request for reimbursement, they “want their inverter  back”.
(3)   SMA didn’t want to honor payment on a service call  for an EEPROM swap out, even though I had an email from one of their  techies promising just that. After I produced the smoking gun, they  pointed out that we were about six weeks late in sending in the  reimbursement paperwork – they weren’t going to pay us. They’ve taken a  legally defensible position, but it makes for terrible public  relations.
(4)   I thought Fronius might the only cowboy wearing a  white hat, but no. They want us to wait a month before reimbursing not  us but our distributor who only had the misfortune of selling us bad  merchandise. How we manage (and when) to get reimbursed from our  distributor, only time will tell, but I bet they won’t cut us a  check.

But I am saving my best story for  last…

(5)   Xantrex II: we had a terrible time getting an  XW6048 to work properly (the details are unimportant, except to say the  design was spot on). I made six service calls after installing it last  Summer. I did a firmware upgrade, tightened even terminal and wiggled  every wire I could. I checked the module connections and the PV combiner  box. We programmed and reprogrammed every possible system parameter, to  no avail. After about 4 months (5?), I refused to make any more service  calls without a Xantrex technician at my side, and the customer  threatened to see an attorney. Xantrex eventually sent a technician down  to Los Angeles and administered another firmware upgrade and the system  settled down. Do you think they are willing to pay for any of our  post-install service calls? 

I don’t switch vendors very often  or without good reason, but I don’t expect to sell another Outback based  system, nor do I expect to sell another GT. I am trying to convince my  salesmen to sell the Sunny Island system over the Xantrex XW product  (for a number of reasons) even though it is a more expensive  proposition. 

Is the following too much to ask  for? 

- Superior, real-time technical  support in the field, including generation of an RMA on the  spot

- Replacement equipment promptly  shipped with prepaid shipping labels for the return of the defective  item.

- Receipt of defective equipment  by the manufacturer, triggers installer payment without the requirement  of submitting a separate invoice.

- Direct payment to company  servicing the equipment, within 30 days of the 
service.

I am not aware of a single Company  out there which meets the above four criteria, but I haven’t looked  closely at PVP or some of the others. All other things being equal, I  would really like to get behind a manufacturer of quality inverters who  also treats installers as partners in the warranty department, and be  able to extol their virtues to customers. In the next breath, I will  patiently explain to the prospective customer the hazards of purchasing  an inverter from a Company that does not have a sound and equitable  warranty policy.

Any thoughts? And let’s remember,  at least on this list, they are all listening…

- Peter
Peter T.  Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820  Cynthia Ave.., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile  323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert.  031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com

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