[RE-wrenches] Inverters and their Manufacturers

Tump tump at hughes.net
Mon Mar 30 09:00:05 PDT 2009


But seriously, how about getting in writing from the customer that he/she is
getting the opportunity to use a new inverter design with new features but
may also have some unknown design issues that could, from time to time,
require attention?  
 
At what point does an inverter, cc or other BOS components become something
other then a "the latest-and-greatest gadget in the beta-testing process."
IF we are to install components that have " have some unknown design issues
that could, from time to time, require attention? "when do we have the
understanding & the willingness from the manus to be compensated.Do we too
sign something from the manufacture? Hey no problem I'll travel 200 miles &
install your product cause you told me it wasn't too reliable.
I don't think that the issue we are talking about is/ are Bata test
components.
 You can't tell me that the manufactures have just had isolated incidents of
product failure that they have chosen to ignore.
We the installers, are the folks who have our reputations compromised by
component failures.
I can't wait for my next customer to hear that they need to sign a paper
indicating that the products might work , might not, but solar is reaaalllly
reliable.
Again I DO NOT put all the blame on the manufactures but having a qc
guideline not only for installations but warrantee issues.This just might be
a better way to prevent problems & then to fix issues that arise due to
product failure in which that both parties agree on.
What you did w/ Omni is exactly what I am talking about.
These issues are not new to the industry but getting the manufactures to
discuss & work on guide lines for testing for failures in the field &
compensating those individuals that comply  w/ the test process in order to
address these issues IS!
 NO sarcasm intended.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel
Davidson
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:50 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverters and their Manufacturers



Not buying equipment that does not work. Excuse my sarcasm, but what a
concept. How about not pushing manufacturers to release their products
prematurely? No one on this list would ever do that - more sarcasm.
 
But seriously, how about getting in writing from the customer that he/she is
getting the opportunity to use a new inverter design with new features but
may also have some unknown design issues that could, from time to time,
require attention? In conjunction with the customer warning, get the
manufacturer's cooperation to share call-back and repair or replacement
costs. In other words, involve your customers who want the
latest-and-greatest gadget in the beta-testing process.
 
Some of you heard this story before, but it is worth repeating. Several
years ago, I did a project with 250 Omnion inverters. Omnion inverters were
not very reliable but they were all we had at the time. Infant mortality
rate was over 6%. The manufacturer blamed the installers and I blamed
inadequate factory final testing. Hans Myers, Omnion owner, was a good
engineer and a reasonable guy. He agreed to switch from 8 hours factory
burn-in to 3 days burn-in before shipping. I agreed to have installers
follow a specific installation procedure (send for copy off-list) and
sign-off on their installation. Infant mortality rate dropped to 0%. Lesson
learned: work with your suppliers to the benefit of your customers and your
bottom line.
 
Joel Davidson
 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Tump <mailto:tump at hughes.net>  
To: 'RE-wrenches' <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>  
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 4:34 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Iverters and their Manufacturers
COMPENSATIONcheck list?

Perhaps this might be an additional reason to really work on the installer's
guild. 
If this trend continues (it hasn't changed since the beginning) then we as a
group might single out one Manu per month & NOT purchases their product. 
Two things might happen; 
1)They might then have the time to actually build products that have a bit
better reliability .
2) If there is a problem WHEN we start to buy their product the Manu's
realize WE the installers, who SELL & INSTALL their products  + put food on
their tables, have THE POWER to affect their bottom line as they do w/ ours
due to lost opportunity costs &  expenses incurred while replacing faulty
equipment.

Probably wouldn't take too long for one of the manufactures to hear from
their distributors that they are not selling anything.
 
 
I will NOT say that all the problems are due to Manu's problems.
I know that I am guilty of not ALWAYS checking the basics & blaming things
that ARE NOT fault of the Manu's but loose wires that. "I swear I checked or
my wires never loosened up".
Many of us have offered suggestions regarding trouble shooting issues in the
past & Bill B has put together a "installers check list''.How about it
Bill?, knowing you, this is something you put together back at PVusa oh
those many years ago

This could be the start of a way to finally develop a industry wide & Manu.
accepted check list to properly assess an issue & then the fix.
How about is you manufactures, think this may be a way to compensate the
installers that DO have an issue w/ your products & not their installations.

-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter
Parrish
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:59 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iverters and their Manufacturers



I don't know about the rest of this group, but we have noticed a steady
increase in inverter warranty calls. It used to be one a year; then things
started to increase to the point of at least one per-month. In the beginning
it was the just the GEC-1000s, then the SMA EEPROM debacle, followed by the
Fronius IG firmware problem, followed by the Xantrex GT "controlled flight
into terrain". Now both Outback systems we have installed recently have gone
down (#@!?*). We are finding that most manufacturers are essentially
indifferent to installers who are an integral part of their warranty
obligation and are doing a poor job of supporting installers for a variety
of reasons, to wit:

 

(1)   Outback will not reimburse installers period. Not for anything that
they do. They require that equipment be removed and sent to WA for repair or
replacement, or will ship replacement parts when the problem is obvious, but
that's it. We have had one repair last month and are facing a second in
April. We paid extra for the CEC-grade warranty, and I expected more. Based
on this experience, I will not recommend or sell Outback equipment, until
this policy changes.

(2)   Xantrex lost a returned GT inverter! They began dunning us for it. We
had the RMA on file but didn't bother to write down the tracking number from
the Xantrex-generated UPS label (what am I going to do with an inverter that
won't invert?). So not only will they not process our request for
reimbursement, they "want their inverter back".

(3)   SMA didn't want to honor payment on a service call for an EEPROM swap
out, even though I had an email from one of their techies promising just
that. After I produced the smoking gun, they pointed out that we were about
six weeks late in sending in the reimbursement paperwork - they weren't
going to pay us. They've taken a legally defensible position, but it makes
for terrible public relations.

(4)   I thought Fronius might the only cowboy wearing a white hat, but no.
They want us to wait a month before reimbursing not us but our distributor
who only had the misfortune of selling us bad merchandise. How we manage
(and when) to get reimbursed from our distributor, only time will tell, but
I bet they won't cut us a check.

 

But I am saving my best story for last.

 

(5)   Xantrex II: we had a terrible time getting an XW6048 to work properly
(the details are unimportant, except to say the design was spot on). I made
six service calls after installing it last Summer. I did a firmware upgrade,
tightened even terminal and wiggled every wire I could. I checked the module
connections and the PV combiner box. We programmed and reprogrammed every
possible system parameter, to no avail. After about 4 months (5?), I refused
to make any more service calls without a Xantrex technician at my side, and
the customer threatened to see an attorney. Xantrex eventually sent a
technician down to Los Angeles and administered another firmware upgrade and
the system settled down. Do you think they are willing to pay for any of our
post-install service calls? 

 

I don't switch vendors very often or without good reason, but I don't expect
to sell another Outback based system, nor do I expect to sell another GT. I
am trying to convince my salesmen to sell the Sunny Island system over the
Xantrex XW product (for a number of reasons) even though it is a more
expensive proposition. 

 

Is the following too much to ask for? 

 

- Superior, real-time technical support in the field, including generation
of an RMA on the spot

 

- Replacement equipment promptly shipped with prepaid shipping labels for
the return of the defective item.

 

- Receipt of defective equipment by the manufacturer, triggers installer
payment without the requirement of submitting a separate invoice.

 

- Direct payment to company servicing the equipment, within 30 days of the
service.

 

I am not aware of a single Company out there which meets the above four
criteria, but I haven't looked closely at PVP or some of the others. All
other things being equal, I would really like to get behind a manufacturer
of quality inverters who also treats installers as partners in the warranty
department, and be able to extol their virtues to customers. In the next
breath, I will patiently explain to the prospective customer the hazards of
purchasing an inverter from a Company that does not have a sound and
equitable warranty policy.

 

Any thoughts? And let's remember, at least on this list, they are all
listening.

 

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com 

 



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