[RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling
Christopher Freitas
cfreitas at outbackpower.com
Mon Dec 29 10:41:06 PST 2008
Ron -
Tech support is open today and should be able to help you troubleshoot
this in a step-by-step process that will discover the root problem.
I am a bit confused by the descriptions of the events and have the
following questions and comments:
When you tested just the inverter without the generator running - you
stated that there was a noticeable flicker every 20 seconds - did you
also notice that the yellow "AC INPUT" light would blink and then turn
solid momentarily? This usually indicates that there is a cross
connection of the inverter's AC output with the AC input wiring - which
can be caused by many different problems (nicked or chewed wires, water
filled junction box or conduits, miswiring of a 240VAC load, etc. - or
an internal problem with the inverter). In a nutshell - the inverter is
"seeing" its own AC output at its AC input - so it connects and then
tries to charge from itself - which causes the AC output voltage to
decrease - and then it drops the AC source for another 20 seconds - over
and over...
When the generator was connected to the inverter - was the varying AC
input voltage viewed on a digital test meter or on the MATE's display?
The voltage display on the MATE will vary until the inverter has
actually connected to the generator since the inverter is not locked
onto the frequency of the generator. The fluctuation of the AC voltage
on the MATE is more pronounced if the frequency of the generator is way
off from the 60hz nominal. Check the voltage and the frequency at the
inverter's AC input terminals with a good quality true-RMS meter with
the generator running but not connected.
Is this a 120/240VAC "split phase" generator operating with only one
inverter on it? It is possible that an internal connection in the
generators windings has fried due to overloading one output leg of the
generator - its similar to a bad solder joint where the voltage is OK
until current is pulled and then it opens up. You might try putting the
inverter on the other leg to see if you see the same issue.
I agree with the multiple problem theory that was suggested - it sounds
like the generator is having a problem maintaining good voltage (or more
likely a high enough frequency probably) and then there is some type of
voltage feedback occurring when the generator is not connected. Be
sure to check the frequency of the generator when seeing issues like
this - its often the problem.
Let us know if you need more assistance
Christopher
Christopher Freitas
Director of Research and Development
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas at outbackpower.com <mailto:cfreitas at outbackpower.com>
Tel 360 435 6030
Cell 360 202 4239
19009 62nd Ave NE
Arlington WA 98223 USA
www.outbackpower.com <http://www.outbackpower.com/>
________________________________
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
Chamberlin
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 6:39 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling
I would also look at the loads. From an earlier post of yours it
appeared that the system ran more normally when not connected to the
house loads, but still cycled.
Could something on the load side be shorting, or could there be a huge
load trying to kick on that doesn't really start? It may well be a
situation where two (or more) things are going on simultaneously. My
approach would be to continue to isolate components and run several
different tests on all components.
Good luck
Drake
At 08:51 PM 12/28/2008, you wrote:
This thread seems to have died ... somehow it got mixed in with the
"strings of different orientation" thread. If anyone has further input I
would very much appreciate it as I have to schedule a long trip to
remedy this and want to have as much ammunition as possible. Again, to
restate the problem:
an Outback VFX3524 inverter installed on an E-panel in a remote off-grid
location. Voltage at the inverter input terminals is fluctuating between
110 & 140+ volts continuously. AC in will not connect so batteries can't
charge. Output voltage measured at the inverter output terminals is
steady at 122v. When all household loads are turned off the input
terminal voltage stabilizes but AC In still does not connect.
Generator does not seem to be at fault as output measured at the gen. is
stable even under load. System was working for about 1 1/2 years but
under new ownership has been badly monitored and batteries have become
totally discharged.
I'm trying to determine if this is a circuit board problem so I can
perform a rescue mission by pulling some boards from an in-stock
inverter, Outback tech support are on holidays. Anyone had a similar
problem?
Mick,
referring to
there's not an auto-idle switch on that genset which may have
accidentally been set for auto, is there?
His generator was actually running in idle mode, operating the household
loads when I got there and the first thing I discovered was that the
voltage was ~90 volts coming in to the inverter. I manually switched the
generator to full speed and then checked the voltage again, that is
where I found the rapid fluctuations occurring at the inverter.
Ron
On 27-Dec-08, at 1:23 PM, mick abraham wrote:
Ron wrote: "The owner told me...that someone had wired a switch
incorrectly
and when he turned it on the system "shut down". He then re-wired it and
everything appeared ok but I'm wondering if this fried a board."
Mick replies: I've seen several times with Outback and other brands
(going as
far back as the Trace SW) where the inverter responds to an accidental
short
circuit in the household wiring by shutting itself off quicker than a
circuit
breaker can open. I'll bet that is what your customer
experienced...possibly
due to a nicked hot wire in that new switch box shorting out to ground.
I suspect that (part of your customer's report) is completely unrelated
to
your present problem scenario. If it was my headache I would beg,
borrow,
or...rent a second generator to insert temporarily instead of the Honda
3800.
That's the most conclusive way to determine fault or no-fault on the
generator.
Sometimes a genset will operate non-inverter loads OK and will exhibit
normal
looking voltage etc. but there still could be transients or spikes which
render this input AC power unacceptable to the inverter/charger.
Thinking...there's not an auto-idle switch on that genset which may have
accidentally been set for auto, is there?
Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com <http://www.abrahamsolar.com/>
Voice: 970-731-4675
Hi Mick & Jay,
I disconnected the gen. line to the inverter and tested the
output and got steady voltage. I then re-connected the inverter and
tested the gen. output from a different outlet and got steady voltage,
both around 122v. So I've ruled out the generator. It was my first
suspicion.
I have also noticed that when the household loads are off the
inverter output appears stable, doesn't fluctuate except about every 20
seconds inverter audibly, the voltage drops from around 120 to 110 then
resumes - as if the input was momentarily dropped.
Darryl,
I did play with the AC charge current lowering it to around 5
aac but it didn't seem to make a difference. The owner told me, as an
afterthought that someone had wired a switch incorrectly and when he
turned it on the system "shut down". He then re-wired it and everything
appeared ok but I'm wondering if this fried a board. I know there is an
ac control board in there ... could this be it?
BTW, it's a very small generator, Honda 3800.
Ron
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Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
740-448-7328
740-856-9648
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