[RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

jay peltz jay at asis.com
Mon Dec 29 18:14:50 PST 2008


HI Christopher,

I don't know if this is similar.

I have a stacked 3648 unit, running in parallel at 120v.  Being fed  
from a 240v generator with a X-240 as stepdown.  Generator is a Onan  
8.5kw.  ( don't ask why its a long story)

Unit did work OK for about 2 yrs.

When you start the generator, the inverter will connect, AC voltage  
will rise until the inverter kicks out the generator and the cycle  
repeats.

Now here is where it gets weird, if you turn on a few lights ( could  
be incandescent or CFL's) and I mean like 150 watts worth, and then  
turn on the generator it will work OK.  Won't have the AC spike. But a  
small motor spike, such as a Rotozip etc will kick out the generator,  
and then it starts again.

Turning down the AC input AAC rating doesn't help, unless you turn it  
down a lot.
The generator has a new board and was tested out as OK.

If you run the house directly from the generator no problems. You can  
run large loads no problem.
If you run the house directly from the inverter all is good.

Only issue is with genny/inv interface.

Of course its a 2.5 hr drive each way.

Do you think this is a related problem?

thanks,

jay

peltz power
On Dec 29, 2008, at 10:41 AM, Christopher Freitas wrote:

> Ron –
>
> Tech support is open today and should be able to help you  
> troubleshoot this in a step-by-step process that will discover the  
> root problem.
>
> I am a bit confused by the descriptions of the events and have the  
> following questions and comments:
>
> When you tested just the inverter without the generator running –  
> you stated that there was a noticeable flicker every 20 seconds –  
> did you also notice that the yellow “AC INPUT” light would blink and  
> then turn solid momentarily?  This usually indicates that there is a  
> cross connection of the inverter’s AC output with the AC input  
> wiring – which can be caused by many different problems (nicked or  
> chewed wires, water filled junction box or conduits, miswiring of a  
> 240VAC load, etc. – or an internal problem with the inverter).  In a  
> nutshell – the inverter is “seeing” its own AC output at its AC  
> input – so it connects and then tries to charge from itself – which  
> causes the AC output voltage to decrease – and then it drops the AC  
> source for another 20 seconds – over and over…
>
> When the generator was connected to the inverter – was the varying  
> AC input voltage viewed on a digital test meter or on the MATE’s  
> display?   The voltage display on the MATE will vary until the  
> inverter has actually connected to the generator since the inverter  
> is not locked onto the frequency of the generator.  The fluctuation  
> of the AC voltage on the MATE is more pronounced if the frequency of  
> the generator is way off from the 60hz nominal.  Check the voltage  
> and the frequency at the inverter’s AC input terminals with a good  
> quality true-RMS meter with the generator running but not connected.
>
> Is this a 120/240VAC “split phase” generator operating with only one  
> inverter on it?  It is possible that an internal connection in the  
> generators windings has fried due to overloading one output leg of  
> the generator – its similar to a bad solder joint where the voltage  
> is OK until current is pulled and then it opens up.  You might try  
> putting the inverter on the other leg to see if you see the same  
> issue.
>
> I agree with the multiple problem theory that was suggested – it  
> sounds like the generator is having a problem maintaining good  
> voltage (or more likely a high enough frequency probably) and then  
> there is some type of voltage feedback occurring when the generator  
> is not connected.   Be sure to check the frequency of the generator  
> when seeing issues like this – its often the problem.
>
> Let us know if you need more assistance
>
> Christopher
>
>
> Christopher Freitas
> Director of Research and Development
> OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
> cfreitas at outbackpower.com
> Tel 360 435 6030
> Cell 360 202 4239
> 19009 62nd Ave NE
> Arlington WA 98223 USA
> www.outbackpower.com
> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org 
> ] On Behalf Of Drake Chamberlin
> Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 6:39 AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling
>
> I would also look at the loads.  From an earlier post of yours it  
> appeared that the system ran more normally when not connected to the  
> house loads, but still cycled.
>
> Could something on the load side be shorting, or could there be a  
> huge load trying to kick on that doesn't really start?  It may well  
> be a situation where two (or more) things are going on  
> simultaneously.  My approach would be to continue to isolate  
> components and run several different tests on all components.
>
> Good luck
>
> Drake
>
>
> At 08:51 PM 12/28/2008, you wrote:
>
> This thread seems to have died ... somehow it got mixed in with the  
> "strings of different orientation" thread. If anyone has further  
> input I would very much appreciate it as I have to schedule a long  
> trip to remedy this and want to have as much ammunition as possible.  
> Again, to restate the problem:
>
>
> an Outback VFX3524 inverter installed on an E-panel in a remote off- 
> grid location. Voltage at the inverter input terminals is  
> fluctuating between 110 & 140+ volts continuously. AC in will not  
> connect so batteries can't charge. Output voltage measured at the  
> inverter output terminals is steady at 122v.  When all household  
> loads are turned off the input terminal voltage stabilizes but AC In  
> still does not connect.
>
> Generator does not seem to be at fault as output measured at the  
> gen. is stable even under load. System was working for about 1 1/2  
> years but under new ownership has been badly monitored and batteries  
> have become totally discharged.
>
> I'm trying to determine if this is a circuit board problem so I can  
> perform a rescue mission by pulling some boards from an in-stock  
> inverter, Outback tech support are on holidays. Anyone had a similar  
> problem?
>
>
> Mick,
>
> referring to
>
>
> there's not an auto-idle switch on that genset which may have  
> accidentally been set for auto, is there?
>
> His generator was actually running in idle mode, operating the  
> household loads when I got there and the first thing I discovered  
> was that the voltage was ~90 volts coming in to the inverter. I  
> manually switched the generator to full speed and then checked the  
> voltage again, that is where I found the rapid fluctuations  
> occurring at the inverter.
>
> Ron
>
> On 27-Dec-08, at 1:23 PM, mick abraham wrote:
>
>
>
> Ron wrote: "The owner told me...that someone had wired a switch  
> incorrectly
> and when he turned it on the system "shut down". He then re-wired it  
> and
> everything appeared ok but I'm wondering if this fried a board."
>
> Mick replies: I've seen several times with Outback and other brands  
> (going as
> far back as the Trace SW) where the inverter responds to an  
> accidental short
> circuit in the household wiring by shutting itself off quicker than  
> a circuit
> breaker can open. I'll bet that is what your customer  
> experienced...possibly
> due to a nicked hot wire in that new switch box shorting out to  
> ground.
>
> I suspect that (part of your customer's report) is completely  
> unrelated to
> your present problem scenario. If it was my headache I would beg,  
> borrow,
> or...rent a second generator to insert temporarily instead of the  
> Honda 3800.
> That's the most conclusive way to determine fault or no-fault on the  
> generator.
>
> Sometimes a genset will operate non-inverter loads OK and will  
> exhibit normal
> looking voltage etc. but there still could be transients or spikes  
> which
> render this input AC power unacceptable to the inverter/charger.
>
> Thinking...there's not an auto-idle switch on that genset which may  
> have
> accidentally been set for auto, is there?
>
> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
> www.abrahamsolar.com
> Voice: 970-731-4675
>
>
>> Hi Mick & Jay,
>> I disconnected the gen. line to the inverter and tested the output  
>> and got steady voltage. I then re-connected the inverter and tested  
>> the gen. output from a different outlet and got steady voltage,  
>> both around 122v. So I've ruled out the generator. It was my first  
>> suspicion.
>>
>> I have also noticed that when the household loads are off the  
>> inverter output appears stable, doesn't fluctuate except about  
>> every 20 seconds inverter audibly, the voltage drops from around  
>> 120 to 110 then resumes - as if the input was momentarily dropped.
>>
>> Darryl,
>> I did play with the AC charge current lowering it to around 5 aac  
>> but it didn't seem to make a difference. The owner told me, as an  
>> afterthought that someone had wired a switch incorrectly and when  
>> he turned it on the system "shut down". He then re-wired it and  
>> everything appeared ok but I'm wondering if this fried a board. I  
>> know there is an ac control board in there ... could this be it?
>>
>> BTW, it's a very small generator, Honda 3800.
>
> Ron
>
>
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> Drake Chamberlin
> Athens Electric
> OH License 44810
> CO License 3773
> 740-448-7328
> 740-856-9648
>
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