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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ron – </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Tech support is open today and should be
able to help you troubleshoot this in a step-by-step process that will discover
the root problem. </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I am a bit confused by the descriptions of
the events and have the following questions and comments: </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>When you tested just the inverter without
the generator running – you stated that there was a noticeable flicker
every 20 seconds – did you also notice that the yellow “AC INPUT”
light would blink and then turn solid momentarily? This usually indicates
that there is a cross connection of the inverter’s AC output with the AC
input wiring – which can be caused by many different problems (nicked or
chewed wires, water filled junction box or conduits, miswiring of a 240VAC load,
etc. – or an internal problem with the inverter). In a nutshell –
the inverter is “seeing” its own AC output at its AC input –
so it connects and then tries to charge from itself – which causes the AC
output voltage to decrease – and then it drops the AC source for another 20
seconds – over and over… </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>When the generator was connected to the
inverter – was the varying AC input voltage viewed on a digital test
meter or on the MATE’s display? The voltage display on the
MATE will vary until the inverter has actually connected to the generator since
the inverter is not locked onto the frequency of the generator. The
fluctuation of the AC voltage on the MATE is more pronounced if the frequency
of the generator is way off from the 60hz nominal. Check the voltage and
the frequency at the inverter’s AC input terminals with a good quality
true-RMS meter with the generator running but not connected. </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Is this a 120/240VAC “split phase”
generator operating with only one inverter on it? It is possible that an
internal connection in the generators windings has fried due to overloading one
output leg of the generator – its similar to a bad solder joint where the
voltage is OK until current is pulled and then it opens up. You might try
putting the inverter on the other leg to see if you see the same issue. </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I agree with the multiple problem theory
that was suggested – it sounds like the generator is having a problem maintaining
good voltage (or more likely a high enough frequency probably) and then there
is some type of voltage feedback occurring when the generator is not connected.
Be sure to check the frequency of the generator when seeing issues
like this – its often the problem. </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Let us know if you need more assistance </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Christopher</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Christopher Freitas</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Director of Research and Development
</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>OutBack Power Systems, Inc.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a href="mailto:cfreitas@outbackpower.com"><font
size=3 color=black><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>cfreitas@outbackpower.com</span></font></a></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Tel 360 435 6030</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Cell 360 202 4239</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><font color=navy><span style='color:navy'>19009 62<sup>nd</sup>
Ave NE</span></font><font color=navy><span style='color:navy'> </span></font></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><font color=navy><span style='color:navy'>Arlington</span></font><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'> </span></font><font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'>WA</span></font><font color=navy><span style='color:navy'> </span></font><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'>98223</span></font><font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'> </span></font><font color=navy><span style='color:navy'>USA</span></font></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a href="http://www.outbackpower.com/"><font
size=3 color=black><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>www.outbackpower.com</span></font></a></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Drake Chamberlin<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, December 29, 2008
6:39 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback
VFX input voltage cycling</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I would also look at the loads. From an earlier post of yours it
appeared that the system ran more normally when <u>not</u> connected to the
house loads, but still cycled. <br>
<br>
Could something on the load side be shorting, or could there be a huge load
trying to kick on that doesn't really start? It may well be a situation
where two (or more) things are going on simultaneously. My approach would
be to continue to isolate components and run several different tests on all
components. <br>
<br>
Good luck <br>
<br>
Drake <br>
<br>
<br>
At 08:51 PM 12/28/2008, you wrote:<br>
<br>
</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Helvetica'>This thread seems to have died ... somehow it got mixed
in with the "strings of different orientation" thread. If anyone has
further input I would very much appreciate it as I have to schedule a long trip
to remedy this and want to have as much ammunition as possible. Again, to
restate the problem:<br>
</span></font><br>
<br>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>an Outback VFX3524 inverter installed on an E-panel in a remote
off-grid location. Voltage at the inverter input terminals is fluctuating
between 110 & 140+ volts continuously. AC in will not connect so batteries
can't charge. Output voltage measured at the inverter output terminals is
steady at 122v. When all household loads are turned off the input
terminal voltage stabilizes but AC In still does not connect.<br>
<br>
Generator does not seem to be at fault as output measured at the gen. is stable
even under load. System was working for about 1 1/2 years but under new
ownership has been badly monitored and batteries have become totally
discharged.<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=4 face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Helvetica'>I'm trying to determine if this is a circuit board
problem so I can perform a rescue mission by pulling some boards from an
in-stock inverter, Outback tech support are on holidays. Anyone had a similar
problem? </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=4 face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Helvetica'>Mick,<br>
</span></font><br>
<font size=4 face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica'>referring
to<br>
</span></font><br>
<br>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Helvetica'>there's not an auto-idle switch on that genset which may
have accidentally been set for auto, is there?</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
</span></font><font size=4 face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Helvetica'>His generator was actually running in idle mode,
operating the household loads when I got there and the first thing I discovered
was that the voltage was ~90 volts coming in to the inverter. I manually
switched the generator to full speed and then checked the voltage again, that
is where I found the rapid fluctuations occurring at the inverter.<br>
</span></font><br>
<font size=4 face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica'>Ron<br>
</span></font><br>
<font size=4 face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica'>On
27-Dec-08, at 1:23 PM, mick abraham wrote:<br>
</span></font><br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Helvetica'>Ron wrote: "The owner told me...that someone had
wired a switch incorrectly<br>
and when he turned it on the system "shut down". He then re-wired it
and<br>
everything appeared ok but I'm wondering if this fried a board."<br>
</span></font><br>
<font size=4 face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica'>Mick
replies: I've seen several times with Outback and other brands (going as<br>
far back as the Trace SW) where the inverter responds to an accidental short<br>
circuit in the household wiring by shutting itself off quicker than a circuit<br>
breaker can open. I'll bet that is what your customer experienced...possibly<br>
due to a nicked hot wire in that new switch box shorting out to ground.<br>
</span></font><br>
<font size=4 face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica'>I
suspect that (part of your customer's report) is completely unrelated to<br>
your present problem scenario. If it was my headache I would beg, borrow,<br>
or...rent a second generator to insert temporarily instead of the Honda 3800.<br>
That's the most conclusive way to determine fault or no-fault on the generator.<br>
</span></font><br>
<font size=4 face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica'>Sometimes
a genset will operate non-inverter loads OK and will exhibit normal<br>
looking voltage etc. but there still could be transients or spikes which<br>
render this input AC power unacceptable to the inverter/charger.<br>
</span></font><br>
<font size=4 face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica'>Thinking...there's
not an auto-idle switch on that genset which may have<br>
accidentally been set for auto, is there?<br>
</span></font><br>
<font size=4 face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica'>Mick
Abraham, Proprietor<br>
<a href="http://www.abrahamsolar.com/" eudora=autourl>www.abrahamsolar.com</a><br>
Voice: 970-731-4675</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
</span></font></p>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite="">
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Hi Mick & Jay,<br>
I disconnected the gen. line to the inverter and tested the output and got
steady voltage. I then re-connected the inverter and tested the gen. output
from a different outlet and got steady voltage, both around 122v. So I've ruled
out the generator. It was my first suspicion.<br>
<br>
I have also noticed that when the household loads are off the inverter output
appears stable, doesn't fluctuate except about every 20 seconds inverter
audibly, the voltage drops from around 120 to 110 then resumes - as if the
input was momentarily dropped.<br>
<br>
Darryl,<br>
I did play with the AC charge current lowering it to around 5 aac but it didn't
seem to make a difference. The owner told me, as an afterthought that someone
had wired a switch incorrectly and when he turned it on the system "shut down".
He then re-wired it and everything appeared ok but I'm wondering if this fried
a board. I know there is an ac control board in there ... could this be it?<br>
<br>
BTW, it's a very small generator, Honda 3800.</span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
Ron<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font></p>
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<p></x-sigsep><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><x-sigsep>Drake
Chamberlin<br>
Athens Electric<br>
OH License 44810<br>
CO License 3773<br>
740-448-7328<br>
740-856-9648 </span></font></p>
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