[RE-wrenches] Well siphon?
frenergy
frenergy at psln.com
Sat Jan 29 23:41:56 EST 2022
Dang,
Slow learner but I got it now. I did some research and its
pretty fascinating. Thanks
Bill
On 1/28/2022 6:28 AM, Jay wrote:
> Hi Bill
>
> Ok I’ll trybto explain 1 more time.
> Let’s take your example.
> Lake level at 100’, top of dam at 143’ output of the pipe at 0’
> The pipe is sch 80 steel,totally filled with water, no air. There is
> a check valve at the lake side which will allow lake water in but not
> out, with the pipe intake below water level, and there is a valve at
> the other end.
>
> When you open the valve at the bottom, that 143’ of water will start
> to move out of the bottom of the pipe. It will be pulling up on the
> 43’ from the top of dam down to the water. 33’ down from the dam top
> on the lake side it will turn to vacuum leaving 10’ of water in the
> pipe. The other 33’ above it will siphon over the top of the dam and
> slowly make its way down the pipe.
>
> It cannot pull more than 33’ at sea level. Just the way it is.
>
> You can find good YouTube videos of water “boiling”at room temperature
> under a vacuum, and that’s what happens in that pipe. That boiling
> means that the water is no longer a liquid but a gas.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
>> On Jan 27, 2022, at 8:09 PM, frenergy <frenergy at psln.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> This is good, I'm not yet willing to accept egg-defeat. In my
>> previously described scenario, the atmospheric pressure does not play
>> a role because I'm not evacuating the air-filled pipe with the
>> suction side of a pump which /would/ rely on atmospheric pressure to
>> fill the pipe with water as the vacuum increases inside the pipe.
>>
>> In my scenario the pipe going over the ridge is filled
>> with water from the discharge side of a pump, it could be filled from
>> anywhere in the pipe but there must be an exhaust only air vent at
>> the highest point of the pipe. Both ends of the pipe must not allow
>> any air in and one end of the pipe must be lower than the other.
>> Because we are not dealing with a mere 1 atmosphere of pressure (or
>> vacuum in this case), the "pull" of the water on the lower side of
>> this pipe will cause tremendous crushing pressure on the _outside_ of
>> this pipe that's drawing out of the well. I think the physics is
>> right but I'm not sure how practical it is. The pipe has to be
>> absolutely air-tight, completely full of water and extremely strong.
>>
>> Now I'm really sticking my neck out. There's gotta be an
>> old physics teacher out there....help!
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> On 1/27/2022 6:14 PM, Jay wrote:
>>> Hi Bill
>>>
>>> Sorry about the egg
>>>
>>> Here is some actual info to confirm what I and others have said.
>>>
>>> You cannot vacuum water any more than 33’ at sea level.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.nwcg.gov/course/ffm/squirt-water/35-drafting-guidelines
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>>> On Jan 27, 2022, at 5:34 PM, frenergy <frenergy at psln.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> OK, I'll gamble some egg on my face. In this case though, you
>>>> would not be "pulling a vacuum" with air (a gas) involved. If you
>>>> can fill the entire pipe with a liquid (water), the water that's
>>>> down slope of the water in the well on the other side of the ridge
>>>> it would pull the water out of the well and up over that ridge /as
>>>> long as/ the pipe exit is below the dynamic water level in the well
>>>> and the pipe's intake.
>>>>
>>>> The caveat: the pipe would have to be filled by pumping
>>>> out of the well (one time to set-up this siphon) and the exit end
>>>> of the pipe would have to be closed to be able to fill the pipe
>>>> /completely/, which would require an air vent (exhaust vent only,
>>>> not intake) at the highest point of the pipe going over the ridge.
>>>> A valve would also be required at the exit end for flow control and
>>>> prevent the siphon from drawing the well dry. The pipe would have
>>>> to rated to handle the crushing force of the vacuum being pulled on
>>>> the uphill section of pipe after it left the well. There could
>>>> absolutely not be any leaks in the pipe.
>>>>
>>>> I hope my seat-of-the-pants physics is working today.
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>>> Feather River Solar Electric
>>>> Bill Battagin, Owner
>>>> 4291 Nelson St.
>>>> Taylorsville, CA 95983
>>>> 530.284.7849
>>>> CA Lic 874049
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 1/27/2022 2:28 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote:
>>>>> Yes, but if the rise is greater than about 30 feet (25 feet even)
>>>>> the water head is greater than atmospheric and the water will draw
>>>>> a vacuum in the pipe. These numbers depend upon the location
>>>>> (elevation) and temperature of the water.
>>>>> for example at 15,000 feet the atmosphere is about 1/2 or sea
>>>>> level, meaning the water column will break at 15 feet of head.
>>>>> (from my high school physics, this is the scale height) so that at
>>>>> 7500 feet the water column is a maximum of 3/4 x 30 feet or 22
>>>>> feet. this is from memory and mine is not so good.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 3:51 PM William Miller
>>>>> <william at millersolar.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Colleagues:
>>>>>
>>>>> All of our water pumping customers to date have been pumping
>>>>> water to tanks higher in elevation than the well-head. Just
>>>>> now I am looking at a system pumping to a pond that is lower
>>>>> than the well-head and lower even than the bottom of the
>>>>> well. The 300’ well has the head at 1200’ elevation and
>>>>> pumping to a pond at 800’ elevation. The line goes over a
>>>>> 1500’ ridge. If there were nothing impeding the water flow,
>>>>> would it not siphon to the pond?
>>>>>
>>>>> Has anyone seen the basic physics available being used to
>>>>> advantage?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>>
>>>>> William
>>>>>
>>>>> Miller Solar
>>>>>
>>>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>>>>
>>>>> 805-438-5600
>>>>>
>>>>> www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
>>>>>
>>>>> CA Lic. 773985
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>
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--
Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
www.frenergy.net
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