<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>Dang,</p>
<p> Slow learner but I got it now. I did some research
and its pretty fascinating. Thanks<br>
</p>
<p>Bill<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/28/2022 6:28 AM, Jay wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:45115A20-E059-4043-8628-0647F7779C1B@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Bill</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Ok I\u2019ll trybto explain 1 more time. </div>
<div dir="ltr">Let\u2019s take your example. </div>
<div dir="ltr">Lake level at 100\u2019, top of dam at 143\u2019 output of
the pipe at 0\u2019</div>
<div dir="ltr">The pipe is sch 80 steel,totally filled with
water, no air. There is a check valve at the lake side which
will allow lake water in but not out, with the pipe intake below
water level, and there is a valve at the other end. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">When you open the valve at the bottom, that 143\u2019 of
water will start to move out of the bottom of the pipe. It will
be pulling up on the 43\u2019 from the top of dam down to the water.
33\u2019 down from the dam top on the lake side it will turn to
vacuum leaving 10\u2019 of water in the pipe. The other 33\u2019 above it
will siphon over the top of the dam and slowly make its way down
the pipe. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">It cannot pull more than 33\u2019 at sea level. Just the
way it is. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">You can find good YouTube videos of water
\u201cboiling\u201dat room temperature under a vacuum, and that\u2019s what
happens in that pipe. That boiling means that the water is no
longer a liquid but a gas. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Jay</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Jan 27, 2022, at 8:09 PM, frenergy
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:frenergy@psln.com"><frenergy@psln.com></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">\ufeff
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<p>This is good, I'm not yet willing to accept egg-defeat. In
my previously described scenario, the atmospheric pressure
does not play a role because I'm not evacuating the
air-filled pipe with the suction side of a pump which <i>would</i>
rely on atmospheric pressure to fill the pipe with water as
the vacuum increases inside the pipe.</p>
<p> In my scenario the pipe going over the ridge is
filled with water from the discharge side of a pump, it
could be filled from anywhere in the pipe but there must be
an exhaust only air vent at the highest point of the pipe.
Both ends of the pipe must not allow any air in and one end
of the pipe must be lower than the other. Because we are
not dealing with a mere 1 atmosphere of pressure (or vacuum
in this case), the "pull" of the water on the lower side of
this pipe will cause tremendous crushing pressure on the <u>outside</u>
of this pipe that's drawing out of the well. I think the
physics is right but I'm not sure how practical it is. The
pipe has to be absolutely air-tight, completely full of
water and extremely strong.</p>
<p> Now I'm really sticking my neck out. There's
gotta be an old physics teacher out there....help!<br>
</p>
<p>Bill<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/27/2022 6:14 PM, Jay wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D628461A-B75D-474E-8D42-50223DD21086@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Bill </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Sorry about the egg</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Here is some actual info to confirm what I
and others have said. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">You cannot vacuum water any more than 33\u2019 at
sea level. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><a
href="https://www.nwcg.gov/course/ffm/squirt-water/35-drafting-guidelines"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.nwcg.gov/course/ffm/squirt-water/35-drafting-guidelines</a></div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Jay</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Jan 27, 2022, at 5:34 PM,
frenergy <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:frenergy@psln.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><frenergy@psln.com></a>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">\ufeff
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<p>OK, I'll gamble some egg on my face. In this case
though, you would not be "pulling a vacuum" with air
(a gas) involved. If you can fill the entire pipe
with a liquid (water), the water that's down slope of
the water in the well on the other side of the ridge
it would pull the water out of the well and up over
that ridge <i>as long as</i> the pipe exit is below
the dynamic water level in the well and the pipe's
intake. <br>
</p>
<p> The caveat: the pipe would have to be
filled by pumping out of the well (one time to set-up
this siphon) and the exit end of the pipe would have
to be closed to be able to fill the pipe <i>completely</i>,
which would require an air vent (exhaust vent only,
not intake) at the highest point of the pipe going
over the ridge. A valve would also be required at the
exit end for flow control and prevent the siphon from
drawing the well dry. The pipe would have to rated to
handle the crushing force of the vacuum being pulled
on the uphill section of pipe after it left the well.
There could absolutely not be any leaks in the pipe.<br>
</p>
<p> I hope my seat-of-the-pants physics is
working today.</p>
<p>Bill</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049</pre>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/27/2022 2:28 PM,
Darryl Thayer wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAHsrUiTJg07dmyi=6n+s-Wh=YH+5zQYj4BX1PVcyfnNAuXuTqg@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:times
new roman,serif;font-size:large">Yes, but if the
rise is greater than about 30 feet (25 feet even)
the water head is greater than atmospheric and the
water will draw a vacuum in the pipe. These
numbers depend upon the location (elevation) and
temperature of the water. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:times
new roman,serif;font-size:large">for example at
15,000 feet the atmosphere is about 1/2 or sea
level, meaning the water column will break at 15
feet of head. (from my high school physics, this
is the scale height) so that at 7500 feet the
water column is a maximum of 3/4 x 30 feet or 22
feet. this is from memory and mine is not so
good.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 27,
2022 at 3:51 PM William Miller <<a
href="mailto:william@millersolar.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">william@millersolar.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US">
<div
class="gmail-m_7610999342914707146WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">Colleagues:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">All
of our water pumping customers to date
have been pumping water to tanks higher in
elevation than the well-head. Just now I
am looking at a system pumping to a pond
that is lower than the well-head and lower
even than the bottom of the well. The
300\u2019 well has the head at 1200\u2019 elevation
and pumping to a pond at 800\u2019 elevation.
The line goes over a 1500\u2019 ridge. If
there were nothing impeding the water
flow, would it not siphon to the pond?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">Has
anyone seen the basic physics available
being used to advantage?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">Thanks
in advance.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">William</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif"">Miller
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif"">17395
Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif"">805-438-5600</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif""><a
href="http://www.millersolar.com/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.millersolar.com</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif"">CA
Lic. 773985</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br>
<table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 13px;"><a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><img
src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif"
alt="" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"
data-unique-identifier="" moz-do-not-send="true"
width="46" height="29"></a></td>
<td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color:
#41424e; font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, sans-serif; line-height: 18px;">Virus-free.
<a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link"
target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.avast.com</a> </td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1"
height="1" moz-do-not-send="true"> </a></div>
<span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance</span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>Pay optional member dues here: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://re-wrenches.org">http://re-wrenches.org</a></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>List Address: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>Change listserver email address & settings:</span><br>
<span><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>There are two list archives for searching. When one
doesn't work, try the other:</span><br>
<span><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a></span><br>
<span><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>List rules & etiquette:</span><br>
<span><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>Check out or update participant bios:</span><br>
<span><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a></span><br>
<span></span><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
Pay optional member dues here: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://re-wrenches.org">http://re-wrenches.org</a>
List Address: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
Change listserver email address & settings:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
List rules & etiquette:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a>
Check out or update participant bios:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.frenergy.net">www.frenergy.net</a></pre>
</body>
</html>