[RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark

[Jeff Clearwater]

Dave A. - Sol-Arks'"GEN" breaker can be used for 1 of 3 operations only 
- Generator, AC Coupling OR Smart Load (Load Shedding)  So when you are 
grid-interactive (which takes up your GRID breaker) and you have PV and 
a Generator - the way to go is to have no AC Coupling - put the Grid and 
Gen where they belong and enjoy the high efficiency and smart control of 
DC Coupling, Time of Use control (for  the Genny,the Grid and the 
Batteries) - all in the mid to high 90's efficiency that the Sol-Ark 
provides.

I know Dave T that you already have an installed Enphase system that 
probably needs to be Rapid Shutdown compliant as well AND that you have 
a whole house genny - however - I still would take a strong look at the 
economic tradeoffs of rewiring the array to DC - (could install Tigo RS) 
- and splitting the whole house Gen output to the Sol-Ark and probably 
existing Transfer switch.  We are just saying - now you are utilizing 
your equipment to the max!  May not be economically feasible labor and 
additional hardware wise in this situation.  But I surely would do the 
math and look at that tradeoff seriously  - perhaps give that option to 
your customer to make the economic decision - would result in long term 
happy customer and most energy utilized with least fuel costs.

I'll let that case rest!  Gees!  all you asked for was some relay 
advice!  See what you get with this List!?  too much expertise! :)

Have fun,

Jeff C.
Village Power Design



> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net>
> May 7, 2021 at 3:25 PM
>
> I do not know much about Sol-Arc, but one can AC couple and DC couple 
> with a Radian or XW. The genset is on the genset input where it belongs.
>
> For Offgrid AC coupling is just another way to damage a battery or 
> genset that does not need to be there. I suppose in a really large 
> microgrid with many houses and a skilled person on site,  it could be 
> used as a second best method to DC coupling everything.
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net <mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net>
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Fri, 7 May 2021 12:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski 
> <jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>
>
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> Jason Szumlanski <mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com>
> May 7, 2021 at 9:21 AM
> I like the idea of some small amount of AC Coupled PV for off-grid 
> systems when there is a known consistent daytime load. Around here the 
> worst case scenario involves afternoon air conditioning in summer, so 
> some WSW-facing AC coupled PV is an efficient way to cover that load 
> and go into darkness with full batteries.
>
> If I understand things correctly, with a Sol-Ark you can 
> simultaneously do AC coupling on the GEN input and DC coupling on the 
> MPPTs and use the GRID input for the generator.
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>
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> Dave Tedeyan <mailto:dave at sungineersolar.com>
> May 7, 2021 at 8:41 AM
> I would certainly agree with you all that AC coupled for off-grid is 
> not the best design choice. But just for clarification, this is a 
> grid-tied system where there is already an Enphase M215 system and a 
> whole house generator set up.
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
>
>
> -- 
> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
> Sungineer Solar*
> *
> 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850
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> Jerry Shafer <mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com>
> May 7, 2021 at 8:10 AM
> I have to agree with Dave on this, complex and off grid generally are 
> not good together, l sugest backing up and you might consider a 
> redesign, dump enphase, go directly in to the inverter DC side, now a 
> gen set back up will work. Your spending more time and effort going in 
> a bad direction. AC coupling for resi is not a great solution to start 
> with and Solark even say that. KISS is better
> Jerry
> NABCEP PV Inspector
>
>
>
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> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net>
> May 6, 2021 at 7:33 AM
>
> I would not do any of this for an offgrid client. It is against the 
> rule of less is more. The whole design is flawed in my opinion.
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net <mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net>
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Tue, 4 May 2021 19:24:13 -0400, Dave Tedeyan 
> <dave at sungineersolar.com> wrote:
>
>
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> Dave Tedeyan <mailto:dave at sungineersolar.com>
> May 4, 2021 at 4:24 PM
> I suppose the question here is - which is the worse failure mode?
> A. Solar turning off until an electrician can fix it.
> OR
> B. Not knowing the contactor failed until it does not open when the 
> generator turns on and running the risk that the solar backfeeds the 
> generator and breaks it.
>
> For off-grid maybe A would be more of a concern. But for grid tied, I 
> would think option B would be worse.
>
> Does anyone have a fail safe method of doing this?
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
>
>
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> Chris Schaefer <mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com>
> May 4, 2021 at 1:41 PM
> Jason,
>
> A valid concern which is why I always wire them as powered open so if 
> there is a failure it would transition closed or not open.
>
> Christopher
>
>
>
> -- 
>
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> /
> /
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> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, 
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> Jason Szumlanski <mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com>
> May 4, 2021 at 1:03 PM
> What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor 
> that is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. 
> It's not a failsafe solution.
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>
>
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> Drake <mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org>
> May 4, 2021 at 12:08 PM
> P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback 
> literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and 
> requires no complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid 
> shutdown. 40 A, 240 V contactors with 240 V coils are readily 
> available and not terribly expensive. The 240 V output of the 
> generator circuit provides the signal.
>
> At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote:
>
>
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> drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org 
> <mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org>
> May 4, 2021 at 7:02 AM
> Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to 
> the 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes 
> on, the contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase 
> inverters through the contacts from common to N/C.
> ---
>
>
> On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote:
>
>
>
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> Dave Tedeyan <mailto:dave at sungineersolar.com>
> May 3, 2021 at 7:26 AM
> Hi All,
>
> I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery 
> backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC 
> coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to 
> Sol-Ark about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of 
> use schedule to not allow it to come on during the day so that we 
> don't run into the issue of the solar backfeeding the generator.
>
> I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out 
> the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's 
> GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for 
> just over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to 
> run at any time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, 
> winter day.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> -- 
> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
> Sungineer Solar*
> *
> 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850
> Cell: 607-288-2898
> www.sungineersolar.com <http://www.sungineersolar.com/>
>
>
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