[RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ??
Ray
ray at solarray.com
Mon Oct 19 23:34:07 EDT 2020
I've used Blue Planet, so I guess I have used an actual UL listed ESS,
even though they don't include the charge controller or inverter. I
knew they were UL, but I double checked and it is the UL 9540 standard
mentioned in 706. So in this case, we could ignore 480, but are held to
706. Regardless of 480 or 706, both are possibly requiring the outside
remote disconnect. Besides Midnite's remote trip breakers, and the
dreaded Bird House, what other options are there to meet this new
requirement? Can the Blue Planet be tripped remotely?
and still my initial question:
Under 480.7, are batteries below 60v still required to have the remote
disconnect? They are exempted from having a disconnect at all in
480.7(A)......quite confusing.
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 10/19/20 7:06 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
> Wrenches
> Blue planet are fire and UL listed systems both on there 48 Volt and
> the LX flavors
> Jerry
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 5:51 PM Ray <ray at solarray.com
> <mailto:ray at solarray.com>> wrote:
>
> The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article 706 clearly state
> that 706 only covers ESS which is an assembly of components, and
> that the total assembly must be listed under UL 9540.
>
> Further it states: "/A group of separate components that includes
> storage batteries, that is provided with support systems (racks),
> charge controllers, and inverters, and that does NOT have an
> overall listing as an ESS is a storage battery system and as such
> is subject to the requirements of article 480"/
>
> and just in case someone says the notes don't matter, 706.5 says:
> "/Energy Storage systems shall be listed"/.
>
> So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS, I'm back to 480.
> Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we need a disconnect for batteries
> over 60 vdc (48v should be exempt) and then 480.7(B) says houses
> need to have an outside disconnect for the batteries labeled
> "Emergency Disconnect".
>
> So here's the real question: Does 480.7(A) exempt us from 480.7(B)?
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote:
>> Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of
>> ESS systems and the application of Article 706. Yes, an ESS
>> /could/ provide 120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the figures
>> in Article 690 show three different configurations where the
>> output of the ESS is not AC, and where the ESS disconnect comes
>> before any power electronics (like a multimode inverter, as shown
>> in the AC and DC coupled systems) or loads (as shown in the
>> stand-alone system). Are those ESS connected to other systems
>> which utilize stored energy to provide AC power? Yes, but the key
>> is "connected to other systems" - in many cases the ESS only
>> provides DC. In fact the definition of ESS clearly states this -
>> it /can/ have AC or DC output, and it /may/ include power
>> electronics (but may not).
>>
>> My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously
>> problematic in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very
>> common) was inserted in order to exempt other devices that store
>> energy (such as UPS, or battery backup in fire alarms/exit
>> signage/etc.) from the 706 requirements.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Brian Mehalic
>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
>> (520) 204-6639
>>
>> Solar Energy International
>> http://www.solarenergy.org
>>
>> SEI Professional Services
>> http://www.seisolarpros.com <http://www.seisolarpros.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt <glenn.burt at glbcc.com
>> <mailto:glenn.burt at glbcc.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Ray,
>>
>> This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a number
>> of my fellow inspectors and code experts. When the 2017 NEC
>> came out, I agreed with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment
>> that the new article was poorly written and did not apply to
>> most systems being installed today. After much discussion
>> through my Cadmus network of authorities, it emerged that
>> indeed 706 apples to the typical residential systems.
>> So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706,
>> and I believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is
>> generating AC voltage of 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system
>> fall under article 706.
>>
>> Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA
>> 1, and the IFC as applicable locally.
>> So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the
>> work we do when systems provide or interface with 120VAC or
>> above (making the system operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger).
>>
>> My initial problem was believing that the article applied to
>> a component (the battery bank), and not the system (all
>> components taken together as a generator/storage system). It
>> is an easy misunderstanding to make.
>>
>> Hope this helps!
>>
>> -Glenn Burt
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>> <mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>> On Behalf
>> Of Ray
>> Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM
>> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>> <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>>
>> Cc: Bill Brooks <billb at energy808.com
>> <mailto:billb at energy808.com>>; Bill Brooks
>> <billbrooks7 at yahoo.com <mailto:billbrooks7 at yahoo.com>>
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ??
>>
>> Hi Everyone;
>>
>> I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized
>> that the newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage
>> Systems is only for Over 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for
>> batteries only requires disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?!
>> (480.7). I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so now
>> that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where do we go
>> for guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC?
>>
>> Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like
>> separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but
>> it seems us off grid installers need some more clarification.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> 303 505-8760
>>
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