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<p>I've used Blue Planet, so I guess I have used an actual UL listed
ESS, even though they don't include the charge controller or
inverter. I knew they were UL, but I double checked and it is the
UL 9540 standard mentioned in 706. So in this case, we could
ignore 480, but are held to 706. Regardless of 480 or 706, both
are possibly requiring the outside remote disconnect. Besides
Midnite's remote trip breakers, and the dreaded Bird House, what
other options are there to meet this new requirement? Can the
Blue Planet be tripped remotely?<br>
</p>
<p>and still my initial question: <br>
</p>
<p>Under 480.7, are batteries below 60v still required to have the
remote disconnect? They are exempted from having a disconnect at
all in 480.7(A)......quite confusing. <br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/19/20 7:06 PM, Jerry Shafer
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAMUFgmV0cpB_PCN724mVZ+nsjsRH7ZW5n=M3o7EkH5SoKVGAyQ@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto">Wrenches
<div dir="auto">Blue planet are fire and UL listed systems both
on there 48 Volt and the LX flavors</div>
<div dir="auto">Jerry</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 5:51 PM
Ray <<a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">ray@solarray.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article 706
clearly state that 706 only covers ESS which is an
assembly of components, and that the total assembly must
be listed under UL 9540. <br>
</p>
<p>Further it states: "<i> A group of separate components
that includes storage batteries, that is provided with
support systems (racks), charge controllers, and
inverters, and that does NOT have an overall listing as
an ESS is a storage battery system and as such is
subject to the requirements of article 480"</i></p>
<p>and just in case someone says the notes don't matter,
706.5 says: "<i>Energy Storage systems shall be listed"</i>.</p>
<p>So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS, I'm
back to 480. Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we need a
disconnect for batteries over 60 vdc (48v should be
exempt) and then 480.7(B) says houses need to have an
outside disconnect for the batteries labeled "Emergency
Disconnect". <br>
</p>
<p>So here's the real question: Does 480.7(A) exempt us
from 480.7(B)? <br>
</p>
<pre cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div>On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with
your interpretation of ESS systems and the application
of Article 706. Yes, an ESS <i>could</i> provide
120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the figures in
Article 690 show three different configurations where
the output of the ESS is not AC, and where the ESS
disconnect comes before any power electronics (like a
multimode inverter, as shown in the AC and DC coupled
systems) or loads (as shown in the stand-alone system).
Are those ESS connected to other systems which utilize
stored energy to provide AC power? Yes, but the key is
"connected to other systems" - in many cases the ESS
only provides DC. In fact the definition of ESS clearly
states this - it <i>can</i> have AC or DC output, and
it <i>may</i> include power electronics (but may not).
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>My understanding is that
the 60 volt limit (which is
obviously problematic in a
world where 48 VDC batteries
and ESS are very common) was
inserted in order to exempt
other devices that store
energy (such as UPS, or
battery backup in fire
alarms/exit signage/etc.)
from the 706 requirements.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Brian Mehalic <br>
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
Installation
Professional\u2122 R031508-59</div>
<div>National Electrical CodeŽ
CMP-4 Member</div>
<div>(520) 204-6639<br>
<div><br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at
4:07 PM Glenn Burt <<a
href="mailto:glenn.burt@glbcc.com" target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">glenn.burt@glbcc.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Ray,<br>
<br>
This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a
number of my fellow inspectors and code experts. When
the 2017 NEC came out, I agreed with Mike Holt and
Bill Brooks' assessment that the new article was
poorly written and did not apply to most systems being
installed today. After much discussion through my
Cadmus network of authorities, it emerged that indeed
706 apples to the typical residential systems.<br>
So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of
article 706, and I believe that the key point is that
the SYSTEM is generating AC voltage of 120VAC or
240VAC, making the system fall under article 706.<br>
<br>
Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480,
NFPA 1, and the IFC as applicable locally.<br>
So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover
the work we do when systems provide or interface with
120VAC or above (making the system operation exceeding
the 60V AC trigger).<br>
<br>
My initial problem was believing that the article
applied to a component (the battery bank), and not the
system (all components taken together as a
generator/storage system). It is an easy
misunderstanding to make.<br>
<br>
Hope this helps!<br>
<br>
-Glenn Burt<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
On Behalf Of Ray<br>
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM<br>
To: RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
Cc: Bill Brooks <<a
href="mailto:billb@energy808.com" target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">billb@energy808.com</a>>;
Bill Brooks <<a href="mailto:billbrooks7@yahoo.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">billbrooks7@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ??<br>
<br>
Hi Everyone;<br>
<br>
I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just
realized that the newly created article 706 covering
Energy Storage Systems is only for Over 60 VDC
(706.1) Also article 480 for batteries only requires
disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not
about to not have a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled
battery systems out of 690, where do we go for
guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC?<br>
<br>
Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017,
like separating off grid systems into articles 706,
and 710, but it seems us off grid installers need some
more clarification.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
--<br>
Ray Walters<br>
Remote Solar<br>
303 505-8760<br>
<br>
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