[RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries
Kent Osterberg
kent at coveoregon.com
Mon Mar 23 15:39:19 EDT 2020
Ray,
I agree it is a kludgey way to accomplish a low battery cut off. But, it
doesn't change the no load draw issue. No load draw is still a problem
even if the normal low battery cut off adjustment has enough range. At
least with most lithium batteries there is a secondary shutoff.
Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar
On 3/23/2020 9:13 AM, Ray wrote:
>
> That was our kludgey plan, if Schneider can't do a firmware update.
> The issue I have with that, is the no load draw of the inverter is
> still 25 watts, so eventually it could still pull the batteries into
> full shutdown.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
> On 3/23/20 10:30 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote:
>> I like that approach, Jay. Great idea. It gets the job done and is
>> self contained - using only the features of the inverter. The remote
>> power off could still be used with another remote switch. If there
>> aren't enough aux output ports in the system, one could add a
>> Morningstar relay driver.
>>
>> None-the-less, considering that Scneider Electric has made a lot of
>> firmware changes to make the inverter compatible with lithium
>> batteries, it is baffling that the low battery cutout hasn't been
>> addressed.
>>
>> Kent Osterberg
>> Blue Mountain Solar
>>
>>
>> On 3/22/2020 6:18 PM, Jay wrote:
>>> Hi Kent,
>>>
>>> Yes that’s what I mean.
>>>
>>> According to the manual I’ve got, up to 52v for the low, 64 for the
>>> high.
>>> Which is high enough to do what the simpliphi needs.
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Mar 22, 2020, at 5:37 PM, Kent Osterberg <kent at coveoregon.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Jay,
>>>>
>>>> Do you mean: use the Aux relay to activate the Remote Power Off?
>>>> What is the low battery setting range for the Aux relay? I don't
>>>> see it in the manual.
>>>>
>>>> Kent Osterberg
>>>> Blue Mountain Solar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3/22/2020 4:04 PM, Jay wrote:
>>>>> Ray,
>>>>> Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC
>>>>> output at what ever voltage you want?
>>>>>
>>>>> Jay
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray <ray at solarray.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to
>>>>>> catch the beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is
>>>>>> still enough reserve left to keep the monitoring and solar charge
>>>>>> controllers in operation, and avoid the dreaded dark start. With
>>>>>> Simpliphi, we don't have the dark start, but it still requires
>>>>>> manual reset. This isn't theoretical, we have been having
>>>>>> serious trouble with a system because of Schneider's inability to
>>>>>> set the LVD above 48 v. Also setting the voltage higher (lower
>>>>>> DOD) extends the cycle life of these batteries. Otherwise, I love
>>>>>> the stable 51 volts of Li+, even under load.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ray Walters
>>>>>> Remote Solar
>>>>>> 303 505-8760
>>>>>> On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
>>>>>>> Wrenches
>>>>>>> Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC
>>>>>>> line that when it falls off there is not much left in the tank.
>>>>>>> In addition set the flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar
>>>>>>> <Allan at sindelarsolar.com <mailto:Allan at sindelarsolar.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual
>>>>>>> recommends 48V as LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit
>>>>>>> higher:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10%
>>>>>>> State of Charge)
>>>>>>> BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1%
>>>>>>> State of Charge)
>>>>>>> Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage
>>>>>>> correlations will vary.
>>>>>>> We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher
>>>>>>> LVD setting and adjust as necessary.
>>>>>>> To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little
>>>>>>> reserve “fuel in the tank”."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed
>>>>>>> shut down at 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Allan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ray Walters
>>>>>>>> Remote Solar
>>>>>>>> 303 505-8760
>>>>>>>> On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There
>>>>>>>>> are not too many batteries out there that need LBCO above
>>>>>>>>> 48V. Which ones are you talking about please?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *"we go where powerlines don't"
>>>>>>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail
>>>>>>>>> offgridsolar at sti.net <mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net> text
>>>>>>>>> 209 813 0060*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid
>>>>>>>>> Solar <offgridsolar at sti.net> <mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Ray,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at
>>>>>>>>>> 44V LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was
>>>>>>>>>> firmware back in its day that got older units updated.
>>>>>>>>>> Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It
>>>>>>>>>> would be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one
>>>>>>>>>> needs to be sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak
>>>>>>>>>> LBCO also.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both
>>>>>>>>>> Outback and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this
>>>>>>>>>> helps.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines
>>>>>>>>>> don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail
>>>>>>>>>> offgridsolar at sti.net <mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net> text
>>>>>>>>>> 209 813 0060*
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray
>>>>>>>>>> <ray at solarray.com> <mailto:ray at solarray.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the
>>>>>>>>>> pricing has recently gotten much more competitive.
>>>>>>>>>> As it's names states, its simple. Each 3.8 kWh unit
>>>>>>>>>> has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about
>>>>>>>>>> 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with
>>>>>>>>>> carry handles. We use an insulated 2 pole combiner
>>>>>>>>>> block to run all the parallel conductors to the main
>>>>>>>>>> 2/0 cable. No monitoring, but they do have an handy
>>>>>>>>>> setup guide with recommended settings, specific for
>>>>>>>>>> each manufacturer (including Outback).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Note to all: Schneider XW can still not set its LVD
>>>>>>>>>> above 48, which basically makes it incompatible with
>>>>>>>>>> most Li+ batteries. Their tech support has been
>>>>>>>>>> abysmal as well. We're looking forward to them as
>>>>>>>>>> one of the larger companies in the business, to put
>>>>>>>>>> additional resources into their engineering, and come
>>>>>>>>>> out with at least a firmware update to correct this
>>>>>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ray Walters
>>>>>>>>>> Remote Solar
>>>>>>>>>> 303 505-8760
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hello Wrenches,
>>>>>>>>>> I am working with some people that want to use a
>>>>>>>>>> 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion
>>>>>>>>>> battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM
>>>>>>>>>> charge controllers.
>>>>>>>>>> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion,
>>>>>>>>>> Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries.
>>>>>>>>>> Does any one have any recommendations of which
>>>>>>>>>> battery functions best with the Outback system.
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>> David Katz
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Allan Sindelar*
>>>>>>> allan at sindelarsolar.com <mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com>
>>>>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>>>>>>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
>>>>>>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
>>>>>>> *505 780-2738 cell*
>>>>>>>
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