[RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Ground Mounted Multimode (Battery) Inverters

Thu Feb 13 17:07:52 EST 2020

Here's a page I put in my plan sets to make its clear for the AHJ.  I 
have not had this challenged, and we have never implemented Rapid 
Shutdown on a ground mounted array.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 2/13/20 2:57 PM, Christopher Warfel wrote:
>
> This points out the problem of inconsistent interpretation due in part 
> to conflicting or unclear language. I always like to ask how many 
> basements have protection around the NM conductors running through and 
> along the rafters. I know several people on CMPs are on this 
> listserv.  I am hoping that they can add some clear language, and not 
> leave it to a footnote for implementing this aspect of the NEC.
>
> On 2/13/2020 4:42 PM, Ray wrote:
>>
>> It all comes down to where you install the PV disconnect.  We put it 
>> on the wall before the conductors enter the building or at the array, 
>> therefore 690 doesn't apply.  Proper signage is required indicating 
>> multiple power sources and listing the locations of their disconnects.
>>
>> Also, this isn't just my opinion, many others on the list have said 
>> this, including folks involved in the code writing process, and the 
>> code says this.  The fact that your inspector didn't catch the note 
>> on the figure is to be expected, as it is not out in flashing neon 
>> lights.  It is however a clear statement of where 690 stops: at the 
>> PV disconnect.
>>
>> Unfortunately, this is not further clarified in 2020 from what I can 
>> tell, so we will all continue to suffer inspectors incorrectly 
>> expecting 690.12 on ground mounted systems.  I would politely ask 
>> your inspector to review that ruling with his higher ups.  We can't 
>> start setting precedents that are unreasonable and incorrect.  The 
>> array wiring is already required to be protected by either height, 
>> protective panels or fencing.
>>
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> 303 505-8760
>> On 2/13/20 1:56 PM, Christopher Warfel wrote:
>>>
>>> Ray, I spent a bit of time today with a person who inspects for 
>>> several state renewable energy programs and to summarize, this 
>>> person said the opposite of what you said, and finish saying "seems 
>>> pretty clear cut".  We did review three sections of 690, and one 
>>> from 705.  I pointed out that these are not controlled conductors as 
>>> I interpret them but they should have been defined.   I did not see 
>>> any earlier posts regarding this, so I apologize for the redundancy.
>>>
>>> On 2/13/2020 3:16 PM, Ray wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This has been discussed to death in previous Wrench strings.  Just 
>>>> to cut to the chase:
>>>>
>>>> please review NEC 2017, Figure 690.1(b) Note:(2). /The PV system 
>>>> disconnect in these diagrams separates the PV system from all other 
>>>> systems.//
>>>> /
>>>>
>>>> The inverter, charge controller, batteries etc are no longer part 
>>>> of article 690, and are not subject to its requirements.  Look at 
>>>> articles 705, 706, and 480 for guidance for those _/other systems/_.
>>>>
>>>> /Ray Walters/
>>>> Remote Solar
>>>> 303 505-8760
>>>> On 2/13/20 12:55 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
>>>>> Hi Chris,
>>>>>
>>>>> A few times and my back-up with a schneider system is their rapid
>>>>> shutdown. In the end the inspector comes around and realizes there is
>>>>> little gain for an offgrid ground mounted array for fireman. You do have to
>>>>> educate them and if they are insistent on being a bonehead, install the RS
>>>>> for the inspection and then use the box for the next one or sell it.
>>>>>
>>>>>   After almost 30 years offgrid the last thing I want is something that can
>>>>> fault out the solar or worse when I am away. Networks can be the enemy at
>>>>> times. Less is more offgrid in my opinion.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>>>>> e-mailoffgridsolar at sti.net
>>>>> text 209 813 0060
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 13:07:53 -0500, Christopher Warfel
>>>>> <cwarfel at entech-engineering.com>  wrote:
>>>>>> I got involved in a long discussion on Rapid Shutdown compliance for
>>>>>> battery multimode, grid interconnect inverters that have a ground
>>>>>> mounted array.  At one point, ground mounted array was not supposed to
>>>>>> be subject to Rapid Shutdown unless there were dc conductors on the
>>>>>> building.  NEC 2017 seems to say it is if conductors are 3' in or on
>>>>>> buildings.  The intent of Rapid Shutdown was supposed to protect fire
>>>>>> fighters from exposure to high dc voltage when the array was on a roof.
>>>>>> Every code cycle it morphs into something a little different.  Has
>>>>>> anyone had to confront this situation, and was this type of project
>>>>>> subject to Rapid Shutdown?  Thanks in advance for any clarity on this.
>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>
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