[RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems

Tue Apr 16 12:37:12 EDT 2019

It looks to me the Radian is speced at max altitude of 6,561 feet. I
have asked Schneider about the XW series and they agree that there is not
anything they can find that spells this out. The 2 different Schneider
charge controllers are speced at 6,500 feet. 

So for warranty required
situations that is what I can find. More later. 
Dave Angelini Offgrid
Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[1]
e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2]
text 209 813 0060

On Fri, 12 Apr 2019
19:13:37 +0000, Lones Tuss  wrote:      

Hello All 

Outback's Product
Warranty is not based or negated by the altitude of the installation.
Altitude ratings ensure full spec operation of the equipment up to the
stated elevation . As noted in several posts due to thinner air cooling of
equipment can be affected. Additional cooling may be required and or
additional products to achieve the necessary load requirements.  

FROM:
RE-wrenches  ON BEHALF OF jerrysgarage01
 SENT: Friday, April 12, 2019
11:26 AM
 TO: RE-wrenches 
 SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude
off-grid systems   

Wrenches   

Here is the math, well the answer at sea
level your body has 14.70 PSI exerted on it, at 10,000 feet you only have
10.163 PSI, reduced air pressure, reduced cooling or heating ability
adjusted for standard sea level temp or just over 69%.   

I have done work
in Hawaii on the big island up at the summit, it can be warm and very thin
air, without air to cool no inverter will perform very well. I have some
SMA, FX and Raidians in warm high altitude locations and added extra
cooling to compensate for the lack of air. You will hear the cooling fans
spinning faster, moving less air at higher altitudes.   

SMA sunny island
does have a 9k plus operating altitude but de-rates at less the 7k.  

Jerry   

PV inspector    

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy
smartphone    

-------- Original message --------   

From: Jay Pozner    

Date: 4/12/19 10:06 AM (GMT-08:00)    

To: RE-wrenches     

Subject:
Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems    

We do a fair amount
of systems at "altitude". Recently we had an issue with a Radian system at
about 10,000'. An 8048 inverter screaming (fans running hard) with just
2000 watts of load. I hounded tech support for two years, and even after
switching power modules, etc in the end the techs claim a fairly
substantial deration (that I can't quote right now) of inverter performance
because of cooling issues. We ultimately added another inverter to the
system at the end of last summer. I hope this season we will see a better
result. It makes sense, given the difference in air density, but I do
scratch my head and wonder why we haven't seen such issues with the older
FX's, and some of the older legacy systems?  

I also know that the Midnite
classic charge controllers seem to run the fans quite hard as well. I
haven't had to replace any of the fans, and the controllers are performing
great, but wonder if that will be an issue in the future. It would be great
if some manufactures would give us a quality, competitively priced,
equipment that is rated for altitude, but I don't think there are that many
options out there as of now   

.

 Jay Pozner
 (970) 642-5554

www.nunatakenergy.com [5]
 NABCEP Certified PV Installer:
 Cert.#031310-177

On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 9:17 AM Steve Higgins  wrote:     

Not to add
fuel to the fire... and it's been almost 7 years since I've been with an
Inverter manufacturer so here is my .02 cents... So again, I hope I'm not
overstepping the boundaries of the Wrenches list.    

If I remember
correctly the main issue with the high altitude installs are some of the
components that are used to build the inverter/controllers aren't rated to
be used at high altitude, one of the main components that have this issue
is the electrolytic capacitors. Of course, the specs vary from component to
component. I've seen some rated as low as 8000 ft to some as rated as high
as 30,000 ft. It really just depends on the part(s) that the manufacturer
used to build the product.   

As you gain altitude the temperatures and
the air pressure decrease, as it was explained to me years ago the problem
is with the temperature decrease, this will affect the capacitance of the
capacitor. The colder temps will reduce the overall capacitance of the
capacitor, just like it will with a battery. 

 These caps are generally
used to filter noise from circuits, so when these fail, or the capacitance
values fall, you don't get the filtering you need and this induces noise
into your circuitry possibly causing overall failure or worse, the dreaded
intermittent failure. Generally, if the inverters/controllers are kept on
and warm, you won't have too many problems, it's when they are in extremely
cold temperatures is when you will start having issues.    

Hope this
helps! Have a good weekend!     

 [7]  

STEVE HIGGINS ⋅TECHNICAL SERVICES
MANAGER    

T+1.902.597.4020 M+1.206.790.5840   

F+1.902.597.8447 E
steve at surrette.com [8]   

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On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 7:47 AM  wrote:    

Folks: 

The issue here ulltimately isn't whether it works or not, it's
if it's WARRANTED. Some purchasers (in this case the USFS) mandate that all
equipment be warranted for high altitudes. And that leaves out several
major suppliers. 

Chris Daum 

Oasis Montana Inc. 

FROM: RE-wrenches  ON
BEHALF OF Ray
 SENT: Thursday, April 11, 2019 10:55 PM
 TO:
re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16]
 SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] High
altitude off-grid systems   

We've had some systems at 11,000 ft plus, for
almost 20 years. We have mixtures of Outback, Midnite, Blue Sky, and old
Trace equipment. Never any issues with electronics related to altitude.
Actually the altitude related system issues are generator derating, and
array output exceeding STC ratings on really clear cold days due to the
thin atmosphere. The third issue would be installers not being able to
catch our breath after jogging back to the truck.  
Ray Walters

Remote
Solar

303 505-8760

On 4/11/19 3:39 PM, Dan Fink wrote:    

Hi Chris; I
am deeply concerned about this as nearly 100% of the systems I install are
at 8000 ft (2500m) or higher. I've never had a problem with warranty claims
to Outback or Schneider up to this time. If this is a "new thing" I'd
really like to know about it, on list or off.   

The alitude de-rate stuff
seems to involve dialectric ratings on the transformer coils, and low air
density for cooling. I think that's all in ANSI.   

Dan Fink    

Director
of Solar Education, Greendustrial Training LLC   

IREC Certified
Instructor(tm) for:    

~ PV Installation Professional   

~ Small Wind
Installer   

NABCEP PV Associate   

Executive Director, Buckville Energy
Consulting   

NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers  

dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com [17]   

970-672-4342   

On Thu, Apr
11, 2019 at 1:28 PM  wrote:     

Hi folks: 

I am curious as to how many
of you sell/install battery/inverter systems at high altitudes? Have you
had any particular issues with them? Last year we discovered (in a mostly
costly fashion) that Schneider inverters (and also Outback) are not
warranted above 6500 ft.  

Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max
altitude.  

Best, 

Chris Daum 

Oasis Montana Inc. 

406-777-4309 or 4321

406-777-4309 fax 

www.oasismontana.com [19] 

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