[RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems
chris at OasisMontana.com
chris at OasisMontana.com
Tue Apr 16 15:11:40 EDT 2019
Let’s see it in writing, in the manuals included with the components and in the online, downloadable manuals. Clarity is of the essence!
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309 or 4321
406-777-4309 fax
<http://www.oasismontana.com> www.oasismontana.com
From: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> On Behalf Of Lones Tuss
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 1:14 PM
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems
Hello All
Outback’s Product Warranty is not based or negated by the altitude of the installation. Altitude ratings ensure full spec operation of the equipment up to the stated elevation . As noted in several posts due to thinner air cooling of equipment can be affected. Additional cooling may be required and or additional products to achieve the necessary load requirements.
From: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> > On Behalf Of jerrysgarage01
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 11:26 AM
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems
Wrenches
Here is the math, well the answer at sea level your body has 14.70 PSI exerted on it, at 10,000 feet you only have 10.163 PSI, reduced air pressure, reduced cooling or heating ability adjusted for standard sea level temp or just over 69%.
I have done work in Hawaii on the big island up at the summit, it can be warm and very thin air, without air to cool no inverter will perform very well. I have some SMA, FX and Raidians in warm high altitude locations and added extra cooling to compensate for the lack of air. You will hear the cooling fans spinning faster, moving less air at higher altitudes.
SMA sunny island does have a 9k plus operating altitude but de-rates at less the 7k.
Jerry
PV inspector
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Jay Pozner <jay at nunatakenergy.com <mailto:jay at nunatakenergy.com> >
Date: 4/12/19 10:06 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems
We do a fair amount of systems at "altitude". Recently we had an issue with a Radian system at about 10,000'. An 8048 inverter screaming (fans running hard) with just 2000 watts of load. I hounded tech support for two years, and even after switching power modules, etc in the end the techs claim a fairly substantial deration (that I can't quote right now) of inverter performance because of cooling issues. We ultimately added another inverter to the system at the end of last summer. I hope this season we will see a better result. It makes sense, given the difference in air density, but I do scratch my head and wonder why we haven't seen such issues with the older FX's, and some of the older legacy systems?
I also know that the Midnite classic charge controllers seem to run the fans quite hard as well. I haven't had to replace any of the fans, and the controllers are performing great, but wonder if that will be an issue in the future. It would be great if some manufactures would give us a quality, competitively priced, equipment that is rated for altitude, but I don't think there are that many options out there as of now
.
<http://static.squarespace.com/static/52f26626e4b049d9fe1f4f70/t/52fd4d40e4b0c0844a0eb2de/1393270590052/?format=1500w>
Jay Pozner
(970) 642-5554
www.nunatakenergy.com <http://www.nunatakenergy.com/>
NABCEP Certified PV Installer:
Cert.#031310-177
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On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 9:17 AM Steve Higgins <steve at surrette.com <mailto:steve at surrette.com> > wrote:
Not to add fuel to the fire... and it's been almost 7 years since I've been with an Inverter manufacturer so here is my .02 cents... So again, I hope I'm not overstepping the boundaries of the Wrenches list.
If I remember correctly the main issue with the high altitude installs are some of the components that are used to build the inverter/controllers aren't rated to be used at high altitude, one of the main components that have this issue is the electrolytic capacitors. Of course, the specs vary from component to component. I've seen some rated as low as 8000 ft to some as rated as high as 30,000 ft. It really just depends on the part(s) that the manufacturer used to build the product.
As you gain altitude the temperatures and the air pressure decrease, as it was explained to me years ago the problem is with the temperature decrease, this will affect the capacitance of the capacitor. The colder temps will reduce the overall capacitance of the capacitor, just like it will with a battery.
These caps are generally used to filter noise from circuits, so when these fail, or the capacitance values fall, you don't get the filtering you need and this induces noise into your circuitry possibly causing overall failure or worse, the dreaded intermittent failure. Generally, if the inverters/controllers are kept on and warm, you won't have too many problems, it's when they are in extremely cold temperatures is when you will start having issues.
Hope this helps! Have a good weekend!
<http://www.rollsbattery.com>
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840
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On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 7:47 AM <chris at oasismontana.com <mailto:chris at oasismontana.com> > wrote:
Folks:
The issue here ulltimately isn’t whether it works or not, it’s if it’s WARRANTED. Some purchasers (in this case the USFS) mandate that all equipment be warranted for high altitudes. And that leaves out several major suppliers.
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
From: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> > On Behalf Of Ray
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 10:55 PM
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems
We've had some systems at 11,000 ft plus, for almost 20 years. We have mixtures of Outback, Midnite, Blue Sky, and old Trace equipment. Never any issues with electronics related to altitude. Actually the altitude related system issues are generator derating, and array output exceeding STC ratings on really clear cold days due to the thin atmosphere. The third issue would be installers not being able to catch our breath after jogging back to the truck.
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 4/11/19 3:39 PM, Dan Fink wrote:
Hi Chris; I am deeply concerned about this as nearly 100% of the systems I install are at 8000 ft (2500m) or higher. I've never had a problem with warranty claims to Outback or Schneider up to this time. If this is a "new thing" I'd really like to know about it, on list or off.
The alitude de-rate stuff seems to involve dialectric ratings on the transformer coils, and low air density for cooling. I think that's all in ANSI.
Dan Fink
Director of Solar Education, Greendustrial Training LLC
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
NABCEP PV Associate
Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers
dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com <mailto:dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com>
970-672-4342
On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 1:28 PM <chris at oasismontana.com <mailto:chris at oasismontana.com> > wrote:
Hi folks:
I am curious as to how many of you sell/install battery/inverter systems at high altitudes? Have you had any particular issues with them? Last year we discovered (in a mostly costly fashion) that Schneider inverters (and also Outback) are not warranted above 6500 ft.
Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max altitude.
Best,
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309 or 4321
406-777-4309 fax
<http://www.oasismontana.com> www.oasismontana.com
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