[RE-wrenches] Fwd: RE: Grid neutral

Sat Nov 26 08:25:20 PST 2016

A 120/240 V split phase system is supplied by a 
center tapped 240 V transformer. The center tap 
is grounded, deriving the neutral. Unbalanced 
current from the two hot phase conductors return back through the neutral.

At 08:27 PM 11/25/2016, you wrote:
>Wrenches,
>Is there such a thing as a "grid neutral"? I 
>have been providing design support to a client 
>for a large off grid system; a prepper, rare in 
>these parts. He claims that utility current is 
>carried in part through the ground and in part 
>through a neutral conductor, and such a "utility 
>neutral" is deliberately undersized. At first I 
>pushed back (see below). Now I just wonder what 
>Wrenches more knowledgeable than I am will say.
>Thank you,
>Allan
>
>Allan Sindelar
><mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com>allan at sindelarsolar.com
>NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
>New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
>Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
>505 780-2738 cell
>
>-------- Forwarded Message --------
>Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 11:25:36 -0700
>
>Allan
>Happy thanksgiving. Sorry for the slow reply; overwhelmed here.
>
>All wet sorry. If you look at the power lines 
>you will see two or three wires at top of pole 
>and the one smaller one a little ways down the 
>pole. This is the power station neutral.
>
>The hots bidirectional is an explanation that 
>helps people understand current but is not totally clear.
>Even if you use that visualization in order for 
>the electrons on the hot to oscillate they heed 
>a path to oscillate into and out of
>That is the “neutral”.
>
>Bottom line is from the power station and in 
>your home you have at least one hot and one neutral.
>You can actually use the hot to light up a lite 
>bulb by connecting the other side of the lite bulb to the earth.
>This one way you can get electrocuted.
>I touched the hot side of a 220 circuit and the 
>current went thru me and into the earth
not much fun.
>
>This has been openly publicly discussed and one 
>of the electrical association advised the power 
>companies to increase the size of the neutral to 
>solve many issues, such as cows giving less milk 
>and problems with electric current in homes. The 
>power companies even openly discuss this.
>
>In remote rural areas of Australia, I have seen 
>electricity distribution using SWER (Single-Wire 
>Earth Return); just one wire is fed to the 
>property at a high voltage, with the current 
>returning via the ground.  At the property, a 
>transformer turns the high voltage into normal 
>residential voltages on a pair of wires (230VAC 
>in Australia vs 2x115V in some other countries). 
>But this SWER system is inefficient, and the 
>supply voltage is poorly regulated; it is a rare 
>exception - it is only done because of the high 
>cost of delivering two wires in remote areas.
>
>In metropolitan areas, you will typically see 4 
>wires passing down the street. This consists of 
>three phases of "Active", plus a "Neutral". You 
>could imagine the Active carrying current "from" 
>the power grid, and the Neutral carrying the 
>current "back to" the power grid (even though the current flow is symmetrical).
>
>There is lots of info online if you wish to learn more about this.
>Take care, Robert
>
>From: Allan Sindelar 
>[<mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com>mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com]
>Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2016 10:18 PM
>
>Robert,
>I'm neither an electrical engineer or a utility 
>employee, so I may be all wet here, and if so 
>please dry me off with a straight-up 
>explanation. But this whole argument seems 
>specious to me, as it addresses a "grid neutral".
>
>My reasoning is this - there is no such animal 
>as a "grid neutral" in utility lines, so how is 
>this issue even relevant? The "hots" are 
>bidirectional; only when the utility power is 
>stepped down at the transformer at the home is a 
>reference neutral created. To say that the 
>current "cannot all go back thru the neutral 
>since it is not large enough BY DESIGN" seems to 
>me an absurd concept since there is no neutral in utility power distribution.
>
>Am I missing something?
>Allan
>
>On 10/2/2016 7:51 PM, Robert wrote:
>Allan
>Here is the info I said I would send: 
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJOB2FIqUiQ>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJOB2FIqUiQ. 
>Listen about 20 minutes at least.
>
>All current that goes “out” on the two 
>residential or three commercial hots goes back on the grid neutral
>AND thru the ground'. It cannot all go back thru 
>the neutral since it is not large enough  BY 
>DESIGN. So
. That means we really don’t have a clean ground anymore.
>
>Thank you for your time today. It is enjoyable to speak with you.
>
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