[RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

Drake drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org
Wed Oct 12 15:44:10 PDT 2016 

Right, the old Trace DC cabinets were bloody 
knuckle boxes for sure. Things have come a long 
way since those days, and still have a ways to go.


At 02:36 PM 10/12/2016, you wrote:
>Drake:
>Â
>Your point brings to mind the evolution of the BOS cabinet:
>Â
>1.    In the good old days of the SW 
>inverter, the DC cabinet was all you got, and it 
>was grossly inadequate.  Off-the-shelf load 
>centers were the only choice for the AC 
>side.  AC bypassing was a relatively new concept but it could be done.
>2.    Prior to having an approved inverter, 
>Outback manufactured a brilliant system of BOS 
>that fit the SW, the DR and the future FX series 
>of inverters (the PS series).  I believe BoB 
>Gudgel is responsible for this design and it was genius.Â
>3.    Even with improved BOS, there are the 
>shortcomings we have been discussing.  There is 
>always room for improvement and I am hoping our discussion drives more of that.
>Â
>I too believe that plug-on AC breakers are the 
>superior alternative.  They are cheap and 
>readily available.  Generally two load centers 
>are required, one for generator fed and one for 
>inverter fed.  GTBB systems might call for a 
>third panel: utility fed.  Bypass is the only 
>issue that calls for considerations out of the 
>ordinary for standard load center 
>installations.  Most panel manufacturers 
>provide limited interlock methods.  Where we 
>need to interlock more than two breakers we fab 
>our own slides.  Sure, they are not 
>“listed” but they are a simple mechanical 
>device and I am comfortable using them.
>Â
>There are some challenges to overcome when 
>integrating specialized inverter equipment with 
>standard electrical components.  For example, 
>connecting standard load centers to an FX 
>inverter is problematic because the FX KOs are 
>so far from the mounting surface.  This is the 
>part of the work that I enjoy immensely.  We 
>really want to make installations that are 
>reliable, efficient to install and look 
>good.  I have a friend in the entertainment 
>industry that once said, “aesthetically 
>pleasing installation are more reliable
”  True words.
>
>Â
>Thanks for you input.
>Â
>William
>Â
>Â
>Gradient Cap_mini
>
>Lic 773985
><http://www.millersolar.com/>millersolar.com
>805-438-5600
>Â
>From: RE-wrenches 
>[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
>Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 6:36 AM
>To: RE-wrenches 
><<mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner
>Â
>DC breaker systems should be designed similar to 
>AC bolt on breaker systems that are used for 
>many commercial and industrial applications.
>
>The explanation for the fact that these don't 
>exist has to do with the cost of designing and 
>listing the equipment. There is no technical 
>reason that a DC enclosure needs to be any more 
>difficult to wire than an off the shelf AC box.
>
>The AC breakers in any solar enclosure should 
>certainly be standard snap on breakers. Once the 
>power has been inverted to AC, there is no 
>reason  to require anything other than standard code requirements.
>
>Drake Chamberlin
>Athens Electric LLC
>OH License 44810
>CO License 3773
>NABCEP Certified Solar PV
>740-448-7328
><http://athens-electric.com/>http://athens-electric.com/
>
>At 11:31 PM 10/10/2016, you wrote:
>
>My students we just today complaining about the 
>access to wires on the panel mount breakers. The 
>lug idea with separators might be a fix. It 
>definitely needs to be done differently. In 
>class We added another inverter to our package 
>and trying to install another 175A breaker was a 
>pain. We have a few other DC breakers in there 
>already. The whole cabinet is basically inaccessible.
>
>Jesse Dahl
>
>NABCEP PV Installation Professional
>IBEW Local 292 - Electrician
>Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:40 PM, Jerry Shafer 
><<mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com>jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com > wrote:
>
>
>You might want to look at the square D QO 
>breaker line some are dc rated and voltage rated and are panel mounted.
>Jerry
>
>On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay" 
><<mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com>jay.peltz at gmail.com> wrote:
>I†ll chime in here.<
>Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk.Â
>However it is UL listed for the job. And while 
>you could put together something that would work 
>with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn̢۪t be UL.
>
>What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic 
>ultra flex.  This allows much better movement 
>of the wires with significantly less stress on 
>the terminals.   And if you want to not attach 
>wires to the back of the breakers then you can 
>and I̢۪ve seen outback do it,it, install lay 
>in lugs facing outwards so you can use a 
>screwdriver or allen key on them.  Allows for 
>installation and removal of wire without removal 
>of the breaker or the plate/breakers.  With 
>thimbles of course. And I can̢۪t find them but 
>I know they make them, shielields that fit 
>between each breaker so the lay in lugs are insulated.
>jay
>peltz power
>
>
>
>On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller 
><<mailto:william at millersolar.com>william at millersolar.com > wrote:
>Chris:
>Â
>Thank you for the reply.  I think you 
>misunderstand me.  We always use the GSLC 
>cabinets.  I just don’t like the design 
>conceptept that clutters the cabinet with AC and 
>DC breakers that are difficult to access and 
>block other components.  See photo below of a 
>prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked to work in.  Not a good scenario.
>Â
>We have created an installation standard using 
>the GSLC that minimizes the problems inherent 
>with the design.  We run all AC leads to 
>adjacent load centers and we try to minimize the 
>DC breakers in the cabinet.  It is our goal to 
>completely eliminate all breakers from the 
>removable dead-front.  I think it is pretty 
>self-explanatory why one would not prefer to 
>make connections in a hard to reach location.
>Â
>Our goal is to constantly improve our 
>installation procedures to create better, safer 
>and more efficient installations.Â
>Â
>Also, I don̢۪t need someone to instructuct me 
>on how to make a “finished†looking ing 
>install. If you are familiar with my work you 
>know it is as clean as it gets.  Review my web 
>site.  Below is but one example of one of our installs.
>Â
>And lastly, “suck it up†is nos not a very 
>complimentary phrase.  Please, let’s ks keep it professional.
>Â
>Sincerely,
>Â
>William Miller
>Â
><image007.jpg>
>Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC
>Â
><image008.jpg>
>Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC..
>Â
><image009.jpg>
>Lic 773985
><http://www.millersolar.com/>millersolar.com
><tel:805-438-5600>805-438-5600
>Â
>From: RE-wrenches [ 
>mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason
>Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM
>To: RE-wrenches 
><<mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner
>Â
>The GSLC gives the system a nice finished 
>appearance that the customer will understand. 
>Suck it up and live with the imperfect world we function in.
>Â
>On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William Miller 
><<mailto:william at millersolar.com>william at millersolar.com > wrote:
>
>Friends:
>Â
>I am looking for a PV recombiner.  I need to 
>accept the outputs from 3 remote PV Combiners, 
>send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, 
>into charge controllers, back thorough breaker, 
>into a bus bar, through a main breaker and onto a large battery bank.
>Â
>I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I 
>refuse to install DC breakers on their 
>dead-front because wiring to studs facing away 
>from the front is an inferior 
>design.  Furthermore, I see no need to run PV 
>circuits through the GSLC cabinets.
>Â
>I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these 
>use panel mounted breakers with studs on the back.
>Â
>Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner?
>Â
>Thanks in advance,
>Â
>William Miller
>Â
>Â
><image003.jpg>
>Lic 773985
><http://www.millersolar.com/>millersolar.com
><tel:805-438-5600>805-438-5600
>Â
>
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>--
>Chris Mason
>NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
>Solar Design Engineer
>Generac Generators Industrial technician
>Â
><http://www.cometenergysystems.com/>www.cometsolar.com
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