[RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner
RE Ellison
reellison at gmail.com
Wed Oct 12 13:06:45 PDT 2016
I think the designer was Robin Gudgel for the BOS gear
Bob Gudgel is the genius behind the MX and Classic and other electronics but my memory could be incorrect
From my point of view they both qualify as geniuses !
Bob Ellison
> On Oct 12, 2016, at 2:36 PM, William Miller <william at millersolar.com> wrote:
>
> Drake:
>
> Your point brings to mind the evolution of the BOS cabinet:
>
> 1. In the good old days of the SW inverter, the DC cabinet was all you got, and it was grossly inadequate. Off-the-shelf load centers were the only choice for the AC side. AC bypassing was a relatively new concept but it could be done.
> 2. Prior to having an approved inverter, Outback manufactured a brilliant system of BOS that fit the SW, the DR and the future FX series of inverters (the PS series). I believe BoB Gudgel is responsible for this design and it was genius.
> 3. Even with improved BOS, there are the shortcomings we have been discussing. There is always room for improvement and I am hoping our discussion drives more of that.
>
> I too believe that plug-on AC breakers are the superior alternative. They are cheap and readily available. Generally two load centers are required, one for generator fed and one for inverter fed. GTBB systems might call for a third panel: utility fed. Bypass is the only issue that calls for considerations out of the ordinary for standard load center installations. Most panel manufacturers provide limited interlock methods. Where we need to interlock more than two breakers we fab our own slides. Sure, they are not “listed” but they are a simple mechanical device and I am comfortable using them.
>
> There are some challenges to overcome when integrating specialized inverter equipment with standard electrical components. For example, connecting standard load centers to an FX inverter is problematic because the FX KOs are so far from the mounting surface. This is the part of the work that I enjoy immensely. We really want to make installations that are reliable, efficient to install and look good. I have a friend in the entertainment industry that once said, “aesthetically pleasing installation are more reliable…” True words.
>
> Thanks for you input.
>
> William
>
>
> <image003.jpg>
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com
> 805-438-5600
>
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
> Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 6:36 AM
> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner
>
> DC breaker systems should be designed similar to AC bolt on breaker systems that are used for many commercial and industrial applications.
>
> The explanation for the fact that these don't exist has to do with the cost of designing and listing the equipment. There is no technical reason that a DC enclosure needs to be any more difficult to wire than an off the shelf AC box.
>
> The AC breakers in any solar enclosure should certainly be standard snap on breakers. Once the power has been inverted to AC, there is no reason to require anything other than standard code requirements.
>
> Drake Chamberlin
> Athens Electric LLC
> OH License 44810
> CO License 3773
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV
> 740-448-7328
> http://athens-electric.com/
>
> At 11:31 PM 10/10/2016, you wrote:
>
> My students we just today complaining about the access to wires on the panel mount breakers. The lug idea with separators might be a fix. It definitely needs to be done differently. In class We added another inverter to our package and trying to install another 175A breaker was a pain. We have a few other DC breakers in there already. The whole cabinet is basically inaccessible.
>
> Jesse Dahl
>
> NABCEP PV Installation Professional
> IBEW Local 292 - Electrician
> Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:40 PM, Jerry Shafer <jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com > wrote:
>
>
> You might want to look at the square D QO breaker line some are dc rated and voltage rated and are panel mounted.
> Jerry
>
> On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay" <jay.peltz at gmail.com> wrote:
> I†ll chime in here.
>
> Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk.
> However it is UL listed for the job. And while you could put together something that would work with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t be UL.
>
> What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic ultra flex. This allows much better movement of the wires with significantly less stress on the terminals. And if you want to not attach wires to the back of the breakers then you can and I’ve seen outback do it, install lay in lugs facing outwards so you can use a screwdriver or allen key on them. Allows for installation and removal of wire without removal of the breaker or the plate/breakers. With thimbles of course. And I can’t find them but I know they make them, shields that fit between each breaker so the lay in lugs are insulated.
>
> jay
> peltz power
>
>
>
> On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller <william at millersolar.com > wrote:
>
> Chris:
>
>
> Thank you for the reply. I think you misunderstand me. We always use the GSLC cabinets. I just don’t like the design concept that clutters the cabinet with AC and DC breakers that are difficult to access and block other components. See photo below of a prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked to work in. Not a good scenario.
>
>
> We have created an installation standard using the GSLC that minimizes the problems inherent with the design. We run all AC leads to adjacent load centers and we try to minimize the DC breakers in the cabinet. It is our goal to completely eliminate all breakers from the removable dead-front. I think it is pretty self-explanatory why one would not prefer to make connections in a hard to reach location.
>
>
> Our goal is to constantly improve our installation procedures to create better, safer and more efficient installations.
>
>
> Also, I don’t need someone to instruct me on how to make a “finished†looking install. If you are familiar with my work you know it is as clean as it gets. Review my web site. Below is but one example of one of our installs.
>
>
> And lastly, “suck it up†is not a very complimentary phrase. Please, let’s keep it professional.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
> <image007.jpg>
>
> Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC
>
>
> <image008.jpg>
>
> Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC..
>
>
> <image009.jpg>
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com
> 805-438-5600
>
>
> From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason
> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM
> To: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner
>
>
> The GSLC gives the system a nice finished appearance that the customer will understand. Suck it up and live with the imperfect world we function in.
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William Miller <william at millersolar.com > wrote:
>
> Friends:
>
>
> I am looking for a PV recombiner. I need to accept the outputs from 3 remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, into charge controllers, back thorough breaker, into a bus bar, through a main breaker and onto a large battery bank.
>
>
> I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install DC breakers on their dead-front because wiring to studs facing away from the front is an inferior design. Furthermore, I see no need to run PV circuits through the GSLC cabinets.
>
>
> I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel mounted breakers with studs on the back.
>
>
> Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner?
>
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
>
> <image003.jpg>
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com
> 805-438-5600
>
>
>
>
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> --
> Chris Mason
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
> Solar Design Engineer
> Generac Generators Industrial technician
>
>
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