[RE-wrenches] Fwd: RE: Grid neutral

[Allan Sindelar]

Wrenches,
Is there such a thing as a "grid neutral"? I have been providing design 
support to a client for a large off grid system; a prepper, rare in 
these parts. He claims that utility current is carried in part through 
the ground and in part through a neutral conductor, and such a "utility 
neutral" is deliberately undersized. At first I pushed back (see below). 
Now I just wonder what Wrenches more knowledgeable than I am will say.
Thank you,
Allan

*Allan Sindelar*
allan at sindelarsolar.com <mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com>
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

**

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Date: 	Thu, 24 Nov 2016 11:25:36 -0700


Allan

Happy thanksgiving. Sorry for the slow reply; overwhelmed here.

All wet sorry. If you look at the power lines you will see two or three 
wires at top of pole and the one smaller one a little ways down the 
pole. This is the power station neutral.

The hots bidirectional is an explanation that helps people understand 
current but is not totally clear.

Even if you use that visualization in order for the electrons on the hot 
to oscillate they heed a path to oscillate into and out of

That is the “neutral”.

Bottom line is from the power station and in your home you have at least 
one hot and one neutral.

You can actually use the hot to light up a lite bulb by connecting the 
other side of the lite bulb to the earth.

This one way you can get electrocuted.

I touched the hot side of a 220 circuit and the current went thru me and 
into the earth…not much fun.

This has been openly publicly discussed and one of the electrical 
association advised the power companies to increase the size of the 
neutral to solve many issues, such as cows giving less milk and problems 
with electric current in homes. The power companies even openly discuss 
this.

In *remote rural areas* of Australia, I have seen electricity 
distribution using SWER (Single-Wire Earth Return); just one wire is fed 
to the property at a high voltage, with the current returning via the 
ground.  At the property, a transformer turns the high voltage into 
normal residential voltages on a pair of wires (230VAC in Australia vs 
2x115V in some other countries). But this SWER system is inefficient, 
and the supply voltage is poorly regulated; it is a rare exception - it 
is only done because of the high cost of delivering two wires in remote 
areas.

In *metropolitan areas*, you will typically see 4 wires passing down the 
street. This consists of three phases of "Active", plus a "Neutral". You 
could /imagine/ the Active carrying current "from" the power grid, and 
the Neutral carrying the current "back to" the power grid (even though 
the current flow is symmetrical).

There is lots of info online if you wish to learn more about this.

Take care, Robert

*From:*Allan Sindelar [mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com]
*Sent:* Sunday, October 23, 2016 10:18 PM

Robert,
I'm neither an electrical engineer or a utility employee, so I may be 
all wet here, and if so please dry me off with a straight-up 
explanation. But this whole argument seems specious to me, as it 
addresses a "grid neutral".

My reasoning is this - there is no such animal as a "grid neutral" in 
utility lines, so how is this issue even relevant? The "hots" are 
bidirectional; only when the utility power is stepped down at the 
transformer at the home is a reference neutral created. To say that the 
current "cannot all go back thru the neutral since it is not large 
enough BY DESIGN" seems to me an absurd concept since there is no 
neutral in utility power distribution.

Am I missing something?
Allan

On 10/2/2016 7:51 PM, Robert wrote:

    Allan

    Here is the info I said I would send:
    _https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJOB2FIqUiQ_. Listen about 20
    minutes at least.

    All current that goes “out” on the two residential or three
    commercial hots goes back on the grid neutral

    AND thru the ground'. It cannot all go back thru the neutral since
    it is not large enough  BY DESIGN. So…. That means we really don’t
    have a clean ground anymore.

    Thank you for your time today. It is enjoyable to speak with you.

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