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Wrenches,<br>
Is there such a thing as a "grid neutral"? I have been providing
design support to a client for a large off grid system; a prepper,
rare in these parts. He claims that utility current is carried in
part through the ground and in part through a neutral conductor, and
such a "utility neutral" is deliberately undersized. At first I
pushed back (see below). Now I just wonder what Wrenches more
knowledgeable than I am will say.<br>
Thank you,<br>
Allan<br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Allan Sindelar</b><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a
href="mailto:allan@sindelarsolar.com">allan@sindelarsolar.com</a></span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">NABCEP Certified PV
Installation Professional<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder (Retired), <span style="mso-bidi-font-weight:bold">Positive
Energy,
Inc.</span><br>
<b>505 780-2738 cell</b><br
style="mso-special-character:line-break">
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<th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Date: </th>
<td>Thu, 24 Nov 2016 11:25:36 -0700</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Allan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Happy
thanksgiving. Sorry for the slow reply; overwhelmed here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">All
wet sorry. If you look at the power lines you will see two
or three wires at top of pole and the one smaller one a
little ways down the pole. This is the power station
neutral.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
hots bidirectional is an explanation that helps people
understand current but is not totally clear.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Even
if you use that visualization in order for the electrons on
the hot to oscillate they heed a path to oscillate into and
out of<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">That
is the “neutral”. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Bottom
line is from the power station and in your home you have at
least one hot and one neutral.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You
can actually use the hot to light up a lite bulb by
connecting the other side of the lite bulb to the earth.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">This
one way you can get electrocuted.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
touched the hot side of a 220 circuit and the current went
thru me and into the earth…not much fun.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">This
has been openly publicly discussed and one of the electrical
association advised the power companies to increase the size
of the neutral to solve many issues, such as cows giving
less milk and problems with electric current in homes. The
power companies even openly discuss this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In <strong>remote rural areas</strong> of
Australia, I have seen electricity distribution using SWER
(Single-Wire Earth Return); just one wire is fed to the
property at a high voltage, with the current returning via the
ground. At the property, a transformer turns the high voltage
into normal residential voltages on a pair of wires (230VAC in
Australia vs 2x115V in some other countries). But this SWER
system is inefficient, and the supply voltage is poorly
regulated; it is a rare exception - it is only done because of
the high cost of delivering two wires in remote areas.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In <strong>metropolitan areas</strong>,
you will typically see 4 wires passing down the street. This
consists of three phases of "Active", plus a "Neutral". You
could <em>imagine</em> the Active carrying current "from" the
power grid, and the Neutral carrying the current "back to" the
power grid (even though the current flow is symmetrical).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">There is lots of info online if you wish to
learn more about this.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Take care<o:p></o:p>, Robert<o:p><br>
<br>
</o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
Allan Sindelar [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:allan@sindelarsolar.com">mailto:allan@sindelarsolar.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 23, 2016 10:18 PM<br>
</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Robert,<br>
I'm neither an electrical engineer or a utility employee, so I
may be all wet here, and if so please dry me off with a
straight-up explanation. But this whole argument seems
specious to me, as it addresses a "grid neutral". <br>
<br>
My reasoning is this - there is no such animal as a "grid
neutral" in utility lines, so how is this issue even relevant?
The "hots" are bidirectional; only when the utility power is
stepped down at the transformer at the home is a reference
neutral created. To say that the current "cannot all go <span
style="font-size:11.0pt">back thru the neutral since it is
not large enough BY DESIGN" seems to me an absurd concept
since there is no neutral in utility power distribution. <br>
<br>
Am I missing something?<br>
Allan<br>
</span><br>
On 10/2/2016 7:51 PM, Robert wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Allan
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Here
is the info I said I would send: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJOB2FIqUiQ"><u>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJOB2FIqUiQ</u></a></span><o:p></o:p>.
L<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">isten
about 20 minutes at least.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">All
current that goes “out” on the two residential or three
commercial hots goes back on the grid neutral </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">AND
thru the ground'. It cannot all go back thru the neutral
since it is not large enough BY DESIGN. So…. That means
we really don’t have a clean ground anymore.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thank
you for your time today. It is enjoyable to speak with
you.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"></span><o:p></o:p></blockquote>
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