[RE-wrenches] How Is Rapid Shut-Down Not A Farse...

Ray Walters ray at solarray.com
Thu Feb 5 22:22:21 PST 2015 

Solar is just one tiny little issue that fire fighters have to face.
There's no placard for 5 gal propane bottles stored in the basement.
I'm glad we're looking to make firefighters safer, but this has really 
gotten a bit out of control.
Whatever is planned for 2017, I hope there are some sensible exceptions 
for lower voltage, lower current, off grid, or systems that cover only a 
small percentage of the roof, short conduit runs, etc.
For many years, I have supported some sort of ability to de-energize PV 
closer to its source, but that was based on large, higher voltage 
systems with long virtually unprotected wire runs.
We have decades of proven safety with small off grid systems. Batteries 
are the hazard there.
Currently, the latest code is just driving more folks to do 
un-inspected, DIY installs, and that's not helping the firefighters or 
our industry one bit.
What if instead of all these electronics on every house, we get the 
firefighters a special foam that they spray over the modules to smother 
the fire and block the sun.
That would work regardless of the vintage or design of the system.

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 2/5/2015 9:37 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
> Mark and the wrenches group
> You do have a point, in the many years of my PV life, we have had 
> three building fires not at all related to the PV, on the first, all 
> of the insulation on the wires inside the metal conduit was gone, the 
> at the time required AC disconnect was turned off, and after all was 
> over we were called in to remove our system for the re-construction at 
> which time I found a glove print on the conduit in the attic, it was 
> wet, smoky and had live wires inside shorted and all that was required 
> was a solid ground which it had and worked perfect.
> The second fire was the result of someone else and started under the 
> home, right next to our EMT conduit, here they were able to turn off 
> DC disconnect at the array which was on the ground away from the home 
> and the conduit was properly grounded. again this protected the 
> firefighters which I support.
> The third fire was to far back recall to much but again it was not PV 
> related.
> I hesitate to say this but all the wigets and waldos will not protect 
> against bad installs and some non NEC following related repairs, sure 
> shutting down the array on the roof may help, but the first time there 
> is a system out there that does not work some guy may just go and 
> bypass it, hell its a cheap fix. now who thinks they are protected and 
> they are not, bad deal.
> We all need to remember these systems requires power and we are in the 
> industry of reducing power demands not increasing them. home owners 
> may in time disconnect it them selves for this same reason.
> We need more KIS-S
> Jerry
>
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Dave Click <daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu 
> <mailto:daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu>> wrote:
>
>     Mark-
>
>     690.56(C) provides the placard you're looking for and 690.56(B)
>     tells the first responder where that 690.12 switch is, right?
>
>     For 2017 there are a couple of proposals out there. One is trying
>     to better educate that first responder (quickly!) as to what
>     hazards exist. Another is clarifying some of the language for
>     690.12 such that we continue to have [better] array-level
>     shutdown. Another is changing 690.12 to [basically] module-level
>     shutdown, which has been signed onto by the IAFF, insurance
>     companies, and... some module-level electronics vendors.
>
>     We've installed many, many rooftop systems but we're only about
>     0.1% done with them. Regardless of how 690.12 changes, I think
>     that in the next few years we'll all be revisiting every system
>     we've ever worked on to make sure there's enough labeling to
>     inform firefighters about the hazards. I'm curious how we're going
>     to do that so that a 2027 firefighter can quickly distinguish
>     between 2014's Rapid Shutdown, 2017's Even Rapider Shutdown,
>     2020's BlockOutTheSun Shutdown, 2014's Rapid Shutdown That
>     Actually Still Works, 2011's System That Will Only Shock You If
>     You Cut Through a Module, and 2005's Never-Code-Compliant system
>     that incorrectly has a "Rapid Shutdown" label on it because the
>     homeowner noticed that their neighbor had one. Somehow we need to
>     make sure firefighters know exactly what they're up against.
>
>     Non-farcically,
>     DKC
>
>
>
>     On 2015/2/5 20:08, Mark Frye wrote:
>
>         ...without a mandatory "Stop" switch co-located with the
>         service meter
>         or main breaker?
>
>         How many roof top systems have been installed to date? Many,
>         many, many,
>         many.
>
>         OK ,now I am a first responder showing up at a home that is on
>         fire. How
>         do I know whether or not the DC has been installed such that
>         it provided
>         the protections afforded by 690.12? I don't. Because it is not
>         require
>         for systems conforming to 690.12 to look any different to me
>         than those
>         that do not.
>
>         So does the "stop" switch become the new "fire fighters club"
>         logo? If
>         you have the switch the FD will save your home, if you don't
>         they will
>         let it burn down, even if you have a 690.12 compliant system
>         that does
>         not include an "initiator switch"?
>
>         Mark Frye
>
>
>
>
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