[RE-wrenches] Combating requests for itemized PV pricing

Mon Aug 20 08:18:59 PDT 2012

Many thanks to all of you who responded. It's good to hear I am not alone
in this issue, and I think my approach has been in line with others. There
are lots of bad deals out there, and installing equipment supplied by
others is just too risky in most cases. I have no problem supplying a bill
of materials (at least major components), but line item pricing isn't
something I'll be doing. Now I feel a bit better remaining steadfast in our
policy and passing on these opportunities.

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar

On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Allan Sindelar <
allan at positiveenergysolar.com> wrote:

>  Jason,
> As our Rates and Policies outline is posted on our website and thus
> available for anyone to see, I can excerpt it for you on this list. I
> encourage you not to worry about this market segment. They're not your
> customer base. We seldom sell just components to customers with whom we
> don't have a relationship already. I tell them up front that if they know
> what they want, they can find it cheaper from an internet discounter. By
> expressing that willingness to send them elsewhere, I'm implicitly saying
> that there's value added in working with us (paying both a higher price
> and, if real design time is involved in assessing their needs and
> recommending the right product(s), paying for our consultation labor as
> well). With our experience and knowledge, we'll give them a better solution.
>
> Here is a list of our published policies from our website, developed over
> many years:
>
> a) Positive Energy provides unsurpassed knowledge, quality of work, and
> after-sale support. We do not meet-or-beat others' prices.
> b) We install to the requirements of the National Electric Code (NEC). We
> may not agree with particular aspects of the Code, but we will install to
> Code where required, and usually where not required.
> c) As licensed, bonded and insured electrical contractors, we prefer to
> permit all installations under our own license.
> d) We will generally require a 50% up-front deposit to order equipment.
> e) We do not generally maintain a large inventory of major components.
> This allows us to recommend the best equipment for each situation, rather
> than what we have in stock, and allows us to supply fresh product stock.
> f) Our final invoice presents the job total, with itemized descriptions
> for components, installation materials, permit fees, installation labor,
> and travel time and mileage.
> g) We will not install equipment purchased elsewhere.
> h) We will not service or install equipment on RVs or other traveling
> vehicles. We do build stand alone power systems on platforms that may be
> transportable.
> i) These rates and policies apply to all work performed unless otherwise
> agreed to in advance of work being performed.
>
> Reread g) above, Jason. There's no money in installing customer-supplied
> equipment. The discounter already made the profit, you make at best a wage,
> you have no stake in the design, and you're implicitly expected to warrant
> the result - or at least, to provide after-installation support. In the
> immortal words of Nancy Reagan (or was it Barbara Bush?), Just Say No.
>
> On your second topic: with whole systems, we will only provide an itemized
> estimate to a customer with whom we have already developed a relationship
> of trust - either because they are already one of our longtime clients, or
> because through the design process we are clear that they have chosen to
> work only with us based on our reputation, quality of work, a referral,
> etc., and even then those customers often have no need of itemized prices
> for that very reason. It only took one or two experiences years ago of
> preparing a design for a lead and having the person then shop our design
> elsewhere for us to stop offering itemized component lists with line-item
> prices.
>
> My usual approach is to create my design and estimate in our Quickbooks
> software. We have a variety of templates we have created over the years.
> One that I use for this is set up to print out (or email as a .pdf
> attachment) an itemized list of components, including line items for
> shipping, installation materials, labor and travel, but without prices.
> Only the total appears at the bottom. I make sure that any allowance-based
> items state the amount of the allowance in the description, such as "$150
> allowance for permits; will bill actual cost" or "$1,500 estimated
> allowance for installation materials: wire, conduit, fittings, etc.", or
> even "16' estimated allowance for 2/0 battery cable", as as this provides
> justification for actual billing at job's end. The customer who is
> interested can see our choice of components, and could take this design
> elsewhere for lower prices. But they know that we won't install the
> components for them, and won't support them, and they generally they see
> our proposal as a total solution - design, installation, warranty, support
> and service.
>
> All of what I have written here comes from my specific perspective doing
> battery-based systems, mostly off grid. Our "B-Team" within Positive Energy
> works primarily the old-fashioned way, on a time-and-materials basis. That
> won't work for standard grid-tied systems, which use completely different
> sales approaches and fixed-price bids in a highly competitive environment.
>
> I hope that this helps you, Jason.
> Allan
>
>  *Allan Sindelar*
> *Allan at positiveenergysolar.com* <Allan at positiveenergysolar.com>
> NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder and Chief Technology Officer
> *Positive Energy, Inc.*
> 3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
> *505 424-1112*
> *www.positiveenergysolar.com* <http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/>****
>
> *****************
> *
>
>  On 8/18/2012 10:18 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>
> We are getting more and more people calling that want to provide their own
> equipment and have us install it. It's frustrating, because usually they
> are looking at prices for materials that either I would not consider
> selling, or would not meet the mounting requirements of the Florida
> Building Code. Of course, they do not understand and consider all of the
> other costs.
>
>  In addition, lots of people are looking for a breakdown of prices (down
> to the line item - nuts and bolts). I generally refuse to provide it
> because it inevitably leads to the response "I can get that module/inverter
> online cheaper." The "I need to make money" response leads to "yeah, but
> you must be getting better prices than I see online" argument. And so on,
> and so on... I'm sure you've heard it...
>
>  I've resorted recently to just providing a percentage breakdown,
> stating that the price is roughly 25% each:
>
>    - PV Modules
>    - Inverters and Electrical
>    - Mounting System
>    - Design/Engineering, Permitting, Labor, Overhead, and Profit
>
> Any other tips out there to answer the request for line item details?
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Fafco Solar
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20120820/2ad9575a/attachment-0004.html>