<div>Many thanks to all of you who responded. It's good to hear I am not alone in this issue, and I think my approach has been in line with others. There are lots of bad deals out there, and installing equipment supplied by others is just too risky in most cases. I have no problem supplying a bill of materials (at least major components), but line item pricing isn't something I'll be doing. Now I feel a bit better remaining steadfast in our policy and passing on these opportunities.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div>Jason Szumlanski<div>Fafco Solar</div><div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Allan Sindelar <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:allan@positiveenergysolar.com" target="_blank">allan@positiveenergysolar.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>Jason,<br>
As our Rates and Policies outline is posted on our website and
thus available for anyone to see, I can excerpt it for you on this
list. I encourage you not to worry about this market segment.
They're not your customer base. We seldom sell just components to
customers with whom we don't have a relationship already. I tell
them up front that if they know what they want, they can find it
cheaper from an internet discounter. By expressing that
willingness to send them elsewhere, I'm implicitly saying that
there's value added in working with us (paying both a higher price
and, if real design time is involved in assessing their needs and
recommending the right product(s), paying for our consultation
labor as well). With our experience and knowledge, we'll give them
a better solution.<br>
<br>
Here is a list of our published policies from our website,
developed over many years:<br>
<blockquote>a) Positive Energy provides unsurpassed knowledge,
quality of work, and after-sale support. We do not meet-or-beat
others' prices.<br>
b) We install to the requirements of the National Electric Code
(NEC). We may not agree with particular aspects of the Code, but
we will install to Code where required, and usually where not
required.<br>
c) As licensed, bonded and insured electrical contractors, we
prefer to permit all installations under our own license.<br>
d) We will generally require a 50% up-front deposit to order
equipment.<br>
e) We do not generally maintain a large inventory of major
components. This allows us to recommend the best equipment for
each situation, rather than what we have in stock, and allows us
to supply fresh product stock.<br>
f) Our final invoice presents the job total, with itemized
descriptions for components, installation materials, permit
fees, installation labor, and travel time and mileage.<br>
g) We will not install equipment purchased elsewhere.<br>
h) We will not service or install equipment on RVs or other
traveling vehicles. We do build stand alone power systems on
platforms that may be transportable.<br>
i) These rates and policies apply to all work performed unless
otherwise agreed to in advance of work being performed.<br>
</blockquote>
Reread g) above, Jason. There's no money in installing
customer-supplied equipment. The discounter already made the
profit, you make at best a wage, you have no stake in the design,
and you're implicitly expected to warrant the result - or at
least, to provide after-installation support. In the immortal
words of Nancy Reagan (or was it Barbara Bush?), Just Say No.<br>
<br>
On your second topic: with whole systems, we will only provide an
itemized estimate to a customer with whom we have already
developed a relationship of trust - either because they are
already one of our longtime clients, or because through the design
process we are clear that they have chosen to work only with us
based on our reputation, quality of work, a referral, etc., and
even then those customers often have no need of itemized prices
for that very reason. It only took one or two experiences years
ago of preparing a design for a lead and having the person then
shop our design elsewhere for us to stop offering itemized
component lists with line-item prices. <br>
<br>
My usual approach is to create my design and estimate in our
Quickbooks software. We have a variety of templates we have
created over the years. One that I use for this is set up to print
out (or email as a .pdf attachment) an itemized list of
components, including line items for shipping, installation
materials, labor and travel, but without prices. Only the total
appears at the bottom. I make sure that any allowance-based items
state the amount of the allowance in the description, such as
"$150 allowance for permits; will bill actual cost" or "$1,500
estimated allowance for installation materials: wire, conduit,
fittings, etc.", or even "16' estimated allowance for 2/0 battery
cable", as as this provides justification for actual billing at
job's end. The customer who is interested can see our choice of
components, and could take this design elsewhere for lower prices.
But they know that we won't install the components for them, and
won't support them, and they generally they see our proposal as a
total solution - design, installation, warranty, support and
service. <br>
<br>
All of what I have written here comes from my specific perspective
doing battery-based systems, mostly off grid. Our "B-Team" within
Positive Energy works primarily the old-fashioned way, on a
time-and-materials basis. That won't work for standard grid-tied
systems, which use completely different sales approaches and
fixed-price bids in a highly competitive environment.<br>
<br>
I hope that this helps you, Jason. <br>
Allan<br>
<br>
<div>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><b>Allan Sindelar</b></font><br>
<small><a href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com" target="_blank"><font color="#000099" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><u>Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</u></font></a></small><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><br>
<span style="font-size:10pt">NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
Installer<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder and Chief Technology Officer<br>
<b>Positive Energy, Inc.</b><br>
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)<br>
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<br>
<b><a href="tel:505%20424-1112" value="+15054241112" target="_blank">505 424-1112</a></b><br>
<a href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/" target="_blank"><u>www.positiveenergysolar.com</u></a><u></u><u></u></span></font>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:722.25pt"><span style="font-size:10pt"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u></font><b><br>
</b></span></p>
<span style="font-size:10pt"><br>
</span> </div><div><div class="h5">
On 8/18/2012 10:18 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:<br>
</div></div></div><div><div class="h5">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>We are getting more and more people calling that want to
provide their own equipment and have us install it. It's
frustrating, because usually they are looking at prices for
materials that either I would not consider selling, or would not
meet the mounting requirements of the Florida Building Code. Of
course, they do not understand and consider all of the other
costs.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In addition, lots of people are looking for a breakdown of
prices (down to the line item - nuts and bolts). I generally
refuse to provide it because it inevitably leads to the response
"I can get that module/inverter online cheaper." The "I need to
make money" response leads to "yeah, but you must be getting
better prices than I see online" argument. And so on, and so
on... I'm sure you've heard it...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I've resorted recently to just providing a percentage
breakdown, stating that the price is roughly 25% each:</div>
<div>
<ul>
<li>PV Modules</li>
<li>Inverters and Electrical</li>
<li>Mounting System</li>
<li>Design/Engineering, Permitting, Labor, Overhead, and
Profit</li>
</ul>
Any other tips out there to answer the request for line item
details?</div>
<br clear="all">
Jason Szumlanski
<div>Fafco Solar</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div></div>
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